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old git roundabout
Posted - 11 January 2017 08:57
great, we have Bodyline and Fred'n'Ginger to look forward to!
Wellington
Posted - 11 January 2017 09:10
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Are you saying that jewish people were responsible for regular terrorist atrocities across the globe during the 1930s?

Is it not possible that a distrust / fear of Islam is a little bit justified given the actions of a significant minority of its adherents? Not to mention the fairly abhorrent attitude towards woman, homosexuals etc by millions of peaceful muslims.

Of course the popular press whips up this fear / distrust but i can sympathise with the fealing of unease that many people have towards Islam.
zazzi
Posted - 11 January 2017 09:18
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Wellington - you just proved my point.
zazzi
Posted - 11 January 2017 09:21
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And indeed, Europeans (perhaps similar to your views of this "global Islam") did believe at the time that "global jewry" were responsible for a lot of evil - perhaps not physical violence but everything short of that, so again, you just proved my point
Wellington
Posted - 11 January 2017 09:33
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Yes, but the difference being that "global jewry" was falsely accused of lots of things.

There is no denying that there thousands of people a year are being killed in terrorist incidents in the name of Islam. This is a demonstrable fact.


GMT
Posted - 11 January 2017 09:36
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Is also no doubt non Muslims and especially Christians are being persecuted and driven out of aggressively Islamic countries in much of the Middle East.

What you say is fair zazzi and a genuine concern of mine as well but it's a very partial picture you are giving.
zazzi
Posted - 11 January 2017 09:40
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GMT - but haven't many more civilians in the Middle East and Asia been slaughtered by Crusaders from the West in the last 10 years? i.e. probably 100x more?

Yet, Wellington doesn't seem to be talking about unease in that context.
Terence Brent D'arby
Posted - 11 January 2017 09:41
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Muslims are already killing lots of other Muslims because they worship a slightly different version of sky pixie to them.

So, in Iraq at least, they have already moved beyond the 1930s*.

*timeline wise, not culturally
Terence Brent D'arby
Posted - 11 January 2017 09:42
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'but haven't many more civilians in the Middle East and Asia been slaughtered
by Crusaders from the West in the last 10 years?'

Nope - Muslims have been killing other Muslims on a much larger scale
zazzi
Posted - 11 January 2017 09:43
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"Are you saying that jewish people were responsible for regular terrorist atrocities across the globe during the 1930s?"

"There is no denying that there thousands of people a year are being killed in terrorist incidents in the name of Islam. This is a demonstrable fact."

"Is also no doubt non Muslims and especially Christians are being persecuted and driven out of aggressively Islamic countries in much of the Middle East."

Can we say the same about Western people doing precisely the same, every day globally through greater forms of organized violence?

zazzi
Posted - 11 January 2017 09:44
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TDB - educate yourself: http://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/
GMT
Posted - 11 January 2017 09:45
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Very good point TDB the Sunni/Shia issue but also divisions within both Sunni and Shia is also a major point to raise in any discussion along these lines.
zazzi
Posted - 11 January 2017 09:58
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OK, let's get back on track - keeping aside your weak argument about why the persecution is justified (since the same argument can be applied to Western crusaders going into other countries), back to the question:

will Muslims be increasingly persecuted and eventually have to leave Western countries?
Terence Brent D'arby
Posted - 11 January 2017 10:00
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You might want to actually read that report you have (not) linked to:

'200,000 civilians have been killed as a result of the fighting at the hands of all parties to the conflict'

So not 'Crusaders from the West' then. On the whole it is fellow citizens and believers. See the table on page 4 re Afghanistan

http://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2016/War%20in%20Afghanista n%20and%20Pakistan%20UPDATE_FINAL_corrected%20date.pdf

You're right that was enlightening!
zazzi
Posted - 11 January 2017 10:01
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Yes, TDB - Western armies only spread love wherever they go (usually to non-white countries). Were those civilians killing each other before the Crusaders decided to ravage their societies?

Now back to the question.
GMT
Posted - 11 January 2017 10:12
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In terms of Western interventions in Iraq/Afghan etc. zazzi then I pretty much agree with you.
But the West are damned if they do and damned if they don't to an extent, when we don't intervene as in Syria (the right decision IMO) then we are still attacked for that.

On the question I am just about old enough to remember the IRA campaigns, though not the absolute peak of those in the 1970's. The British didn't really blame the Irish as a whole for the acts of Irish terrorists or persecute them, save maybe at the margins, for that.

I'd think/hope/trust that would be the case again if there are ongoing terrorist attacks in Europe/the UK by a small number of militant Islamists. But in the world in which we now live who can be sure that would be the case. Certainly though whilst some level of hate crime might perhaps be likely talk of deportations or mass attacks is I think/hope way off the mark.

However there are countries in mainland Europe were you might perhaps get a more extreme approach/traction for the hard right. If say France and Germany keep suffering mass attacks, maybe even more so if they happened in Eastern Europe nations the level of response to innocent normal Muslims might be nastier than in the UK. Is all speculation a bit though isn't it, but it's sadly a plausible situation to speculate on and raise your points about.
Wellington
Posted - 11 January 2017 10:15
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keeping aside your weak argument about why the persecution is justified

No one is saying persecution is justified. I'm just saying the unease about Islam felt by many people in Western Europe is understandable.

I'm also perfectly aware that many people in the middle east will feel uneasy about Western powers given our record in the region over the last 100 years.
Wellington
Posted - 11 January 2017 10:17
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And I would also agree with your original point that the tone set by both politicans and sections of the media when it comes to Islam is not acceptable, they play on the fears (both rational and irrational) of the public and it has the potential to lead down a dark path.
zazzi
Posted - 11 January 2017 10:18
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Agreed.

Now, if you were a Muslim, how would you plan for the next 5-10 years; would you assume all will be OK (hasn't been for 10-15 years) or would you hope for the best and plan for the worst:

"will Muslims be increasingly persecuted and eventually have to leave Western countries?"
Terence Brent D'arby
Posted - 11 January 2017 10:23
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'Were those civilians killing each other before the Crusaders decided to ravage their societies?'

Yes. Very much so.

https://www.hrw.org/reports/1997/iran/Iran-05.htm

And in terms of your OP, I would say that the actual genocide of Muslims that is going on right now is a more pressing concern. Blaming the 'Crusaders' is a total cop out.
Wellington
Posted - 11 January 2017 10:29
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Depends on what you mean by "Western Countries". The approach in the UK is likely to be very different compared to, say, Hungary.

As for persecution, that is likely to depend on whether the current trend for terrorist incidents in the West continues. Unfortunately the standard reaction to each terrorist act committed in the name of Islam is for hate incidents against muslims (innocent or not) to be increase.

zazzi
Posted - 11 January 2017 10:33
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Wellington - I believe that you are right that the UK (and perhaps Canada and other English speaking countries) will have a different approach to Hungary type places. However, they all are moving in the same direction and end-goal; I feel the difference will be one of timing. In that sense it's kind of nice to decouple from "liberal" "Europe".

Assuming the trend for terrorist incidents continue, so you believe persecution and self or forced exile is inevitable over a number of years/decades?
3-ducks
Posted - 11 January 2017 10:42
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I was about to post the exact same thing!

OGR have you stolen my brain?


old git roundabout
Posted - 11 January 2017 08:57
great, we have Bodyline and Fred'n'Ginger to look forward to!
Wellington
Posted - 11 January 2017 11:32
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Assuming the trend for terrorist incidents continue, so you believe persecution and self or forced exile is inevitable over a number of years/decades?

No i don't think "exile" is inevitable.

Although you could argue that the trend for almost entirely segregated areas will continue and we will effecitvely see muslim "ghettos" created in certain cities where there will be self sufficient communities of mulsims who have little or no interaction with the wider population of the country. This is, of course, the breeding ground of extremism which will further entrench the problem.
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 11 January 2017 13:34
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zazzi
Posted - 11 January 2017 08:56

the way space for muslims to live and work is becoming increasingly narrow in western states

There are more Muslims living in the Americas, northern and central Europe than at any time in human history.

There are more Muslims living in France than at any time since Charles Martel, or, more likely, ever.

There are more Muslims living in Spain than at any time since Ferdinand and Isabella.

There are more Muslims living in the Balkans than at any time since the waning of the Ottoman empire.

This is before you get into e.g. the number of mosques, elected politicians, Halal shops etc

Your premise is wrong.
zazzi
Posted - 11 January 2017 15:02
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There were more Jews living in Germany in the 1930's than ever before that period - and the point is? Stupid.
Wellington
Posted - 11 January 2017 15:09
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The point being the persectution of 500,000 jews in 1933 Germany was a lot more likely than the persecution of circa 44 million Jews across Europe in 2016 (exc Turkey)
Wellington
Posted - 11 January 2017 15:09
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44 million muslims in Europe*
zazzi
Posted - 11 January 2017 16:16
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It will be logistically difficult but that won't stop laws being passed that covertly/openly target them. We are talking about the will to do it.
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 11 January 2017 18:03
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zazzi
Posted - 11 January 2017 15:02
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There were more Jews living in Germany in the 1930's than ever before that period - and the point is? Stupid.

It's probably a good idea to miss out the insults if you are the one missing the point.

In reality, the "space for muslims to live and work in western states" has never been so wide, and it is becoming wider all the time.

Never has the population been so high in modern times, nor the political representation so great or the Islamophile industry been so active.

I would, however, be interested to see your data about say, the proportion of the "German" population that was Jewish in, say 800, 1400, 1800 and 1933. I can't immediately find any.
zazzi
Posted - 12 January 2017 09:03
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It's almost certain that covert discrimination - in jobs, in the criminal justice system, admissions and so forth has already started.
zazzi
Posted - 12 January 2017 09:03
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(not that these did not exist before but we're talking about the intensity).
zazzi
Posted - 12 January 2017 09:08
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In 1933, approximately 9.5 million Jews lived in Europe, comprising 1.7% of the total European population. This number represented more than 60 percent of the world's Jewish population at that time, estimated at 15.3 million.
Jewish Population of Europe in 1933: Population Data by Country
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005161
Wellington
Posted - 12 January 2017 09:12
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Wellers there were c. 10m Jews in Europe in the 1930s

I said there were 500,000 in Germany in 1933.
zazzi
Posted - 12 January 2017 11:58
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So how will the "state-driven" process start? Obviously, it was all covert until Europeans starting banning the hijab/burkini etc.