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Parsnip
Posted - 19 April 2017 15:48
someone (woman in the street type thing) from bolton on radio 5 this morning

i voted tory last time and then before then obviously for the coalition
she also said that people in bolton were concerned about immigration in the context of brexit because of the number of asians

*gives up*
3-ducks
Posted - 19 April 2017 15:50
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Does she think Asia's in Europe or something? A continent within a continent? Heh.

I do despair. This is what free compulsory education has achieved.
3-ducks
Posted - 19 April 2017 15:51
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I do feel rather guilty. Without these daft proles, we'd never have won.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 19 April 2017 15:53
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?????? is voting Conservative
Posted - 19 April 2017 15:50 Report as offensive Report Offensive
Does she think Asia's in Europe or something? A continent within a continent? Heh.

I do despair. This is what free compulsory education has achieved.


ducks, do you think that the money that your father spent on your schooling was a wise investment?
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 15:55
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Dux, you are every bit as daft as those proles - you just don't have such a good excuse.

What Reggie said about your Daddy's ROI.
3-ducks
Posted - 19 April 2017 15:56
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Insofar as it kept me segreg8d from the Brexit-voting types with tattoos, yes.
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 15:57
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Why would you want to be segregated from them?
3-ducks
Posted - 19 April 2017 15:58
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Eh? Not PLU.
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 15:58
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The only way you differ from them is (presumably) no tattoos. (And a fair old dose of privilege which they didn't have.)

I mean, I know you're thick, but you do realise tattoos are contagious, right?
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 19 April 2017 15:58
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Yes, I suppose you must need someone to look down on.
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 15:58
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*aren't contagious*

Heh.
3-ducks
Posted - 19 April 2017 15:58
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I didn't realise that, but thanks for enlightening me.
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:00
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There's hope for you yet. Maybe we can enlighten you some more before 8th June.
124 Sleeps To Christmas
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:03
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Bang to rights.
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:03
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That much is clear, but Dux really does appear to be as thick as the thickos he sneers at who got him what he wanted.
124 Sleeps To Christmas
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:04
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Except the mass will have jobs and incomes precisely because of the low regulation, low tax regime!
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:05
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Sorry Sleeps, but Brexit means fewer jobs in the UK, not more. And people who are unskilled and unemployable now will still be unskilled and unemployable then.
124 Sleeps To Christmas
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:08
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Disagree.
prestonengland
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:08
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LOLZ at low taxes and tearing up regulation being good for the working classes. Voodoo logic.
124 Sleeps To Christmas
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:10
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In Europe it is indeed different. Most of them don't even know what jobs are, having one has become a dim distant memory.
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:11
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Well so far the announcements about jobs being moved are only going in one direction, Sleeps.
124 Sleeps To Christmas
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:11
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Hang on, that article establishes no causal link to Brexit! The lack of skills and investment is decades old according to the report!
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:11
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ReggiePerrin
Posted - 19 April 2017 15:58

Yes, I suppose you must need someone to look down on.

As you and Anna demonstrate in just about every post, you are the experts in this field. Me? I know my place. I'm just one of the oppressed.
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:13
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Well we can't exactly look up to you, can we? What do you want us to do?
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:13
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I'm not going to lie on the floor, FAOD.
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:16
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Ah yes. Hundreds of millions of people lifted out of poverty by less state intervention in e.g. India and China. Probably the greatest scale of wealth creation in such a period in the entirety of human history. Such a failure would only appeal to dumbos. It's obvious really.

And meanwhile, HMT predicted 500,000 more unemployed in the two years after the referendum, while in fact employment has gone up. How's that one going for you all?
124 Sleeps To Christmas
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:17
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Anna, you mean like the 5,000 full-time jobs to be created across Amazon's business in the UK, bringing total headcount to 24,000 by the end of 2017?

Or the 5,000 jobs Lidl is creating in London alone, as it invests £70 million in its new UK headquarters.

Perhaps you mean how Google now has plans for a new £1bn headquarters in King's Cross, and a doubling of staff numbers? Or Facebook's 500 new UK jobs?
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:17
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Yes because we are directly comparable to India and China...

*bangs head on desk*
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:20
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Sleeps, those jobs were planned before Brexit. If trading conditions continue to be favourable to those companies, they will stay. If sterling continues to fall then it could be a good bargain for them, especially if we turn into the kind of low tax economy the Tories have wet dreams about. But they will only follow through on that and they will only stay in the long term if it is in their interest to do so.

None of this helps the poorly-educated, unskilled people in working class areas who voted for Brexit. You really think they're going to work for Google or Facebook? You think someone from Ebbw Vale is going to move to London to work for Lidl?

Dream on.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:24
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The stuff about economics is for the birds. It's about the people below. The ones in blue, I mean. They voted Leave because, basically, they want to get the immigrants out and turn the clock back to the 1950s. A lot of them seem to be quite angry about it, and they're not going to go away any time soon. They handed Donald Trump the nuclear trigger in the US and they may still put Le Pen in power in France. To barf on about the joys of deregulation is to completely miss the point of what this is really about. This is not a Hanners Brexit. It is a Daily Mail Brexit.

3-ducks
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:30
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Interesting that 40% of self-identified feminists and 38% of environmentalists voted to Leave.

Not a statistic a lot of Remoaners would like you to know, probably.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:35
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Yes, good point, ducks, you've understood the message of those figures very well.

*shoots self in face*
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:37
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He can't even read the correct lines on the chart, let alone draw any kind of sensible conclusion from the figures.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:49
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I was in the army y'know
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:26 Report as offensive Report Offensive
Well quite Reggie, which is why Theresa May was happy to condemn Caburys and the National Trust for not putting "Easter" on their websites - even though they did several thousand times - yet remained silent about Trump dropping the biggest non nuclear bomb in history on Afghanistan.

This country is, in effect, being run by the editor of the Daily Mail.


I agree, and May's willingness to go along with it is frightening. I'd actually be less worried if the Leave voters were people like Hanners. In that case, it would just be politics as usual - the same old sh1t about taxes and spending. But the world has changed. Nationalism and regressive conservatism are in vogue, in this country and elsewhere. I think May is going to ride the tiger to some extent, but the danger is that too many of the Leave contingent are unappeasable and some more charismatic, Trump-like populist figure is going to appear at some point. The next recession will be when things start getting hairy.
Wellington
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:58
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heh @ 71% of Leavers thinking the internet is evil

and yet if it didn't exist they'd have to start attending their local Klan meetings in order to meet like minded people
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:01
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Wellington
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:58 Report as offensive Report Offensive
heh @ 71% of Leavers thinking the internet is evil


Exactly. When 71% of your supporters think that the fcking internet is a bad thing, bandying about figures about Amazon jobs is sort of missing the point of what's going on.
pancake humper
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:03
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ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:07
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I doubt May has the imagination to invade somewhere herself, but populist nationalism doesn't have a great record in when it comes to wars.
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:07
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Anna is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:17
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Yes because we are directly comparable to India and China...

*bangs head on desk*

Would you like to cite examples of where deregulation has caused long-term job losses nationally?

Or to explain what "directly comparable" means in this context?

Or to explain why deregulation in the UK would have a different effect?

Or to explain why reducing completion for jobs among low-paid employees here would hurt them?



ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:10
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Hal, the point is that this isn't about deregulation. Ironically, economic policy is one thing that May is actually quite moderate on. It's about the other stuff. What you might call the "Danzig" stuff.
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:12
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Sigh, you used as your example two countries, on another continent, both with much higher populations than ours, both in an entirely different political and economic situation, both with high levels of extreme poverty, and you're questioning why I didn't think they were a good example to use?

How about you pick a country which is even vaguely comparable to the UK in terms of its politics, economy, population size, location and average standards of living and demonstrate how deregulation has helped benefit their population, and then we'll talk?

Until then, you're using chalk as an example of how we can improve .
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:17
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I like
3-ducks
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:34
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Ehhh....

Care to explain this?



?????? is voting Conservative
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:30
Interesting that 40% of self-identified feminists and 38% of environmentalists voted to Leave.



Anna is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:37
He can't even read the correct lines on the chart, let alone draw any kind of sensible conclusion from the figures.
3-ducks
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:36
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I'll offer odds of 1/5 that bet welching Anna doesn't bother to respond.
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:37
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Anna: if there are RELEVANT differences, say what they are and why they matter.

3-ducks
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:39
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She's too busy trying to read the lines straight.
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:43
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Sigh, all those differences are relevant. Deregulation might improve the lot of workers who are desperately poor and living in a country with a completely different kind of economy. It doesn't follow that it will improve the lives of poor people here.

You know what would improve the lives of poor people here? Investing in their education and training and communities. You know, the kind of sh1t the Tories don't do because they'd rather keep all their lovely money to themselves.

Dux - apologies, I was reading the lines wrong. You win. (Just this one time, mind. I still think you're a prat.)
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:52
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By way of an example, take those working class communities in the so-called Labour heartlands. Places like Sunderland and South Wales. The Tories have never bothered to invest in them because they don't vote Tory. Labour never bothered to invest in them because they thought their votes were guaranteed. And so they have suffered decades of decline, and now those people are poor and uneducated and unskilled and angry, and they read tabloid newspapers which tell them that Brussels bureaucrats and job-stealing, benefit-claiming immigrants are to blame. Which is sad and ironic, given that if any organisation really does try to invest in areas with low standards of living and improve the prospects of those people, it is the EU.
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:59
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What surgeon? Anyone with skills will have fvcked off abroad.
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:41
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Anna: regulation increases the cost to business (or, in the completion field, reduces profits, though regulation here does have beneficial effects on jobs). That reduces the likelihood of businesses providing employment.

Your comment remains mere assertion. Why does deregulation help only "workers who are desperately poor". Indian lawyers, for example would be greatly helped by deregulation.

The "single market" project is, to a big extent, precisely about removing costs and helping EU workers, by liberalising terms of trade. You need to make your mind up: is the deregulation of EU trade a good or bad thing? Are the Poles who come here thanks to deregulation " workers who are desperately poor and living in a country with a completely different kind of economy"? Are the many French people who work here, thanks to deregulation, desperately poor and from a country with a completely different economy? You have made my point for me beautifully.

Your sudden concern about the poor is chucklesome, given your disregard of the effect of the "Rich Whitemans' club" and its tariffs. Tariffs are designed to protect the EU against imports, which hurts the poorest people in the world most, and benefits the richest most. Or is your world view "only Brits count, fvck the really poor"?
wangpain 4 nuclear disarmament
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:52
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I think the internet (or more particularly social media) is, on reflection, a bad thing. the long tail facilitates the filter bubble. Allows extremists of whatever form to find each other. Twitter feeds hate of all forms.

I voted remain.

Q sergio
wangpain 4 nuclear disarmament
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:57
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Thx m7
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 19:06
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Sigh, the EU is largely about harmonisation. The EU "red tape" is actually designed to cut through the 28 separate forms of red tape you would have to comply with if you wanted to trade in all 28 member states.

Left wingers like Corbyn complain about the EU because they think it's not regulated enough, and Tory right wingers complain that it is too regulated. In reality, it's a compromise.

The kind of deregulation the right wing nut jobs want to see would mean workers' rights, health and safety and environmental standards being slashed left, right and centre.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 19 April 2017 19:55
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Anna is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 19 April 2017 19:06 Report as offensive Report Offensive
Sigh, the EU is largely about harmonisation. The EU "red tape" is actually designed to cut through the 28 separate forms of red tape you would have to comply with if you wanted to trade in all 28 member states.

Left wingers like Corbyn complain about the EU because they think it's not regulated enough, and Tory right wingers complain that it is too regulated. In reality, it's a compromise.


Exactly. This is why the EEC was originally set up by right-wing Christian Democrats and opposed by socialists, including large parts of our own dear Labour Party until the 1980s.

The kind of deregulation the right wing nut jobs want to see would mean workers' rights, health and safety and environmental standards being slashed left, right and centre.

It's not going to happen because the voters won't wear it and May is basically a social conservative with pragmatic economic views. But I don't draw any comfort from that. I'd rather that Brexit was about slashing workers' rights and trashing the biosphere a la Hanners, because the alternative is even worse. No good ever came of populist nationalism. Nuclear war is presently a real possibility for the first time since Cuba because a Brexit-style coalition has managed to capture the White House.
Jon Snow
Posted - 19 April 2017 20:02
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Thanks for posting that page Pancake Humper. At least we know where Bright Carver got the "calling their bluff" bullsh1t from now.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 20 April 2017 10:56
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Thatch was so divisive because she actively courted controversy. May seems to think that she can get through this by keeping her head down and allowing her enemies to self-destruct, which is more or less how she got the job in the first place.
tr.aumatico
Posted - 20 April 2017 11:05
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heh @ this

?????? is voting Conservative
Posted - 19 April 2017 15:51
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I do feel rather guilty. Without these daft proles, we'd never have won.

I was in the army y'know
Posted - 19 April 2017 15:52
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And let's face it - they're about to get totally shafted. Stupid fvkers.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 20 April 2017 11:13
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I was in the army y'know
Posted - 20 April 2017 11:02 Report as offensive Report Offensive
May is courting plenty of controversy. Hard Brexit is about as controversial as it gets.


What I meant was that Thatch's style was to talk, loudly, a good right-wing game while quietly making some surprisingly pragmatic compromises. May is the exact opposite of that.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 20 April 2017 11:22
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She talks about how the country is united but Westminster is divided as if parliament is purely a rubber-stamping authority instead of a debating chamber. She talks about the Lords as if they didn't agree to article 50. It's all complete bollocks and it's a potential disaster for democracy. Politics will be poisonous for a long time in this country because of these last few years. There are people growing up now who think that politics is about denying those you disagree with the right to express themselves. Will that denial lead to denying them a right to exist?

This is where I part company with you. You can't accuse someone of attacking democracy by... holding an election.

The fundamental problem isn't May. It's the fact that an awful lot of voters genuinely support regressive nationalistic policies. And they're not going away any time soon.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 20 April 2017 11:30
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I know what you're saying, but May is nothing without the Brexit voters. This isn't about her. If it wasn't her, it would be Johnson or Gove or someone else. The voters who support her hard Brexit policies are the real problem. And unfortunately, in a democracy the voters are never wrong. Bigoted, stupid, prejudiced, short-sighted and irrational - but never wrong.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 20 April 2017 11:33
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Actually, I think that Johnson would be the only possible improvement on May. He is the one credible Tory leader who could deliver the soft Brexit that he probably privately believes in.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 20 April 2017 11:35
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Getting out of the water? FFS, I'm not a supporter of May or Brexit. Quite the opposite. I just think you need to identify the real problem, and it isn't May. It's those people who are shown in blue in the graphs further up the thread. You could replace Theresa May with Mary Poppins and they would still be there with their prejudices and stop-the-world-I want-to-get-off mentality.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 20 April 2017 11:48
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Yes, I think there's some validity in that. I wouldn't want to be walking around looking visibly Muslim in certain parts of the country these days, or speaking on the phone in Polish.

The crunch will come in the next economic downturn, I think, or when Brexit is accomplished and the nationalist camp are looking for a new scapegoat.