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Excession
Posted - 17 March 2017 08:00
Well didn't Ben Gurion himself say after the six day war that it was imperative that Israel got rid of the occupied territories quickly or it would become apartheid state?

The logic is pretty simple. If you win territory in a war and keep it you have to integrate the population into your state. In a democracy that means voting in your elections, equal personal rights etc.

If you fail to do that you are an apartheid state, certainly after 50 years...
cІubman
Posted - 17 March 2017 08:02
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It's possible. Just possible. That the authors may have an axe to grind

"The report was published by the Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia, composed entirely of Arab member states; most do not recognize Israel."
Excession
Posted - 17 March 2017 09:15
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Well they certainly do have an axe to grind.
It is still possible that they have a point mind. For how many decades can you occupy territory as a democracy and not give the people you rule over a vote in your elections?

cІubman
Posted - 17 March 2017 09:20
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it's time like this that i'm reminded of my friend who spent time in the former yugoslavia in the 90s.

they're all arseholes. just some are better armed than others
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 17 March 2017 09:32
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Excession
Posted - 17 March 2017 08:00

The logic is pretty simple. If you win territory in a war and keep it you have to integrate the population into your state. In a democracy that means voting in your elections

There are, I think 17 Arab members of the Knesset. Who voted them in?
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 17 March 2017 09:36
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Halifax, you know perfectly well that Arab citizens of Israel aren't the same as Arabs living under Israeli military occupation in the Palestinian territories. This is such a fucking obvious point that you cannot be in good faith.
215 Sleeps To Christmas
Posted - 17 March 2017 09:37
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How do all the Jews living in the Palestinian territories get on. Are they as harmonious as other Arab states?
Keef has political fatigue
Posted - 17 March 2017 09:42
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Of course it's apartheid. The question is whether or not it's justified in the name of national security.

Given one side is armed with rocks and rubble, and the other with modern US military gadgetry, I would say no.
tarquin
Posted - 17 March 2017 10:53
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Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands[1][2][3][4] of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict. From 2004 to 2014, these attacks have killed 27 Israeli civilians, 5 foreign nationals, 5 IDF soldiers, and at least 11 Palestinians[5] and injured more than 1900 people

Wikipedia
Keef has political fatigue
Posted - 17 March 2017 10:56
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How many Palestinians killed and displaced in the same period?
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 17 March 2017 10:57
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tarquers, have you heard the joke about Hitler's day release from Hell?

The old boy is really excited to be going back to earth and has been looking forward to it for ages.

But by midday he's hammering on the gates of Hades and demanding to be let back in.

"What's the matter, Adolf?" asks Lucifer, "I thought you were mad keen to see how things are going now."

"I was, but it's all changed!" replies the Leader. "The Jews are fighting and the Germans are making money!"
tarquin
Posted - 17 March 2017 11:16
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Lucifer also asked before sending him back 'Do you have any regrets at all? '

'Yes. Next time no more Mr Nice Guy '



Lucifer incidentally has had a bad rap. He is actually the Morning Star Venus

St Peter referred to Jesus as the Morning Star
sporting_zucchini
Posted - 17 March 2017 11:42
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Lucifer did get a bad rep

He was only responsible for killing 1 person

on the other hand, nerds who counted all the deaths in the Bible for which God was directly responsible came up with 2,476,633
tarquin
Posted - 17 March 2017 12:05
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Lucifers bad rap comes from a misreading of Isaiah apparently
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 17 March 2017 12:12
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Typical Jews, stigmatising an innocent bloke.
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 17 March 2017 12:22
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ReggiePerrin
Posted - 17 March 2017 09:36
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Halifax, you know perfectly well that Arab citizens of Israel aren't the same as Arabs living under Israeli military occupation in the Palestinian territories. This is such a fucking obvious point that you cannot be in good faith.

I assume that by "Palestinian territories" you mean the non-annexed areas. Why would people living in areas run by the PA have a vote in sovereign Israeli territory?

In fact - as you would see if you took the trouble to read what I actually wrote - I did not challenge what Excession said. I was interesting in teasing out what he meant, partly because extending the vote to your "Palestinian territories" would itself be an assertion sovereign power. In other words, saying that people in non-annexed areas should be able to vote in the Israeli parliament would concede that those territories were actually part of Israel.


Excession actually makes the point - "you have to INTEGRATE the population into your STATE". I am unclear if that's what he thinks should happen.

Maybe you want to have another think about your post?

Talking about "good faith", you know perfectly well that I am not Halifax.
tarquin
Posted - 17 March 2017 12:39
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Actually the misreading was made by the eyetie St Jerome

I wish Christians would take the advice of rabbis before seeking to interpret the Old Testament
Excession
Posted - 17 March 2017 14:03
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Unless I'm mistaken there's Gaza (Hamas-controlled) and the West Bank (under the Palestinian Authority/Fatah control) and the annexed areas of East Jerusalem (controlled by Isreal).

I think the Israelis did offer Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem citizenship when they formally annexed the area in 1980 so that seems fair enough.

Israel does not recognise Gaza as a separate State does it? It may have legally renounced claims to Gaza but still has closed (and enforces closure) of all land and sea borders around it - that would be like us not allowing anyone out of Eire by blockading it - except Gaza is tiny and the population live in miserable conditions. I suppose you can argue that isn't about giving voting rights to a de facto annexed territory though - as Hamas do have control on the ground and Israel only goes in for miltary punishment ops.


The West Bank is clearer - that is and remains an Israeli occupied territory and the Israelis are colonising it piecemeal by illegal settlements. The Israelis have refused to annex it formally and thus left the Palestinians in it in no man's land. That is unconscionable 50 years after it was seized by Israel. The should have the vote or be running their own free (and non-blockaded) State...

ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 17 March 2017 14:17
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I assume that by "Palestinian territories" you mean the non-annexed areas. Why would people living in areas run by the PA have a vote in sovereign Israeli territory?

Exactly. Excession was talking about the Palestinian territories (which is the accepted international term, so you can lose the scare quotes). You responded by bringing up Knesset elections. But now you're saying you did so as a rather clever Socratic questioning device, viz....

In fact - as you would see if you took the trouble to read what I actually wrote - I did not challenge what Excession said. I was interesting in teasing out what he meant, partly because extending the vote to your "Palestinian territories" would itself be an assertion sovereign power. In other words, saying that people in non-annexed areas should be able to vote in the Israeli parliament would concede that those territories were actually part of Israel.

Well, duh. That's the whole point. The one-state solution, which is what we're headed for (as de facto Israeli and US policy), is unachievable without some kind of apartheid system.

What am I missing here, Socrates?
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 17 March 2017 14:20
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Excession:

Gaza (which has a border with Egypt) has its own govt, elected by its own citizens (albeit that Hamas decided not to hold any more elections once it had taken power). That govt administers the place. Israel does not. I'm not sure if you are saying that Gazans should also be able to elect members of the Israeli parliament.

The West Bank is - as far as I can understand it - a hybrid. Inhabitants vote for the Palestinian Authority (I don't understand your references to blockade. How could it be simultaneously blockaded, have a non-Israeli border and be subject to piecemeal colonisation by Israel? Nor am I clear what the relevance of this is). This was, I think meant to be a transitional arrangement.

But more to the point, your original post seems to be facing in opposite directions. Are you saying that these areas SHOULD be part of Israel, and hence be part of the Israeli electorate (your word "integrate") or that they SHOULDN'T? I can't see how they can be separate AND get to elect Israel's govt.
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 17 March 2017 14:26
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ReggiePerrin
Posted - 17 March 2017 14:17
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What am I missing here, Socrates?

Manners, modesty, ability to read and independence of thought. Will that do to be going on with?
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 17 March 2017 14:35
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That's a lie. I can read.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 17 March 2017 14:40
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But more to the point, your original post seems to be facing in opposite directions. Are you saying that these areas SHOULD be part of Israel, and hence be part of the Israeli electorate (your word "integrate") or that they SHOULDN'T? I can't see how they can be separate AND get to elect Israel's govt.

Excession can speak for himself, but my reading of his original post was that there are two choices, as already envisaged by Ben Gurion - give up the Palestinian territories (= two-state solution) or integrate them into Israel, involving giving their inhabitants full civil and political rights (= one-state solution). The criticism comes in where Israel is effectively going for a one-state solution without giving the Palestinians in the occupied territories civil and political rights - hence the apartheid accusation.
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 17 March 2017 15:13
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ReggiePerrin
Posted - 17 March 2017 14:35
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That's a lie. I can read.

... but it's much more fun writing reply posts without having done so? Yes, we can agree on that.