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The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 12:36
oh he is not even retired...I fancy he soon will be...
Bright Carver
Posted - 20 March 2017 12:39
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Are you repeat-bombing the Beeb with offended complaints as we type, Hank?

Hopefully we can get this vile scum from doing any more cardiac operations as soon as fvcking possible.
Bright Carver
Posted - 20 March 2017 12:42
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So far 36 people have died this week who would have lived had Russell Foster been able to carry out his duties. Many more will follow.

Still, he will know now, whilst enjoying his luxurious retirement and the bonus of a very handsome additional pay-off negotiated by his lawyers that wouldn't have come about but for his extreme use of the word "ladies", that he possibly shouldn't have said "ladies".

Well done, everyone, well done.
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 12:42
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sorry carver are you saying the attitude that women are not up to the job is acceptable from a senior member of a profession?

Incidently I don't think he carries out operation any more but does still have a professorship.
Bright Carver
Posted - 20 March 2017 12:46
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I'm saying this scum should be wiped off the face of the Earth, Hank.

Is he not scum off the Earth?

I fancy he soon will be.
Keef_
Posted - 20 March 2017 12:46
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He's saying that it's a play for an early retirement pay-off...
Osama
Posted - 20 March 2017 12:47
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quite lolsome
pancake humper
Posted - 20 March 2017 12:48
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surgeon in being an egotistical bell-end shocker
chimp_
Posted - 20 March 2017 12:51
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"surgeon in being an egotistical bell-end shocker"

Heh, quite.

I have worked with a couple of former registrars in highly specialist surgical fields (neuro and cardiothoracics). They are not geniuses or super-doctors, they have just devoted many, many years to a very narrow area of medicine. Removed from that area, they are really no different to the rest of us.
Bright Carver
Posted - 20 March 2017 12:54
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So Hank - what are you doing to get this ill-educated dinosaur out of his professorship?

He said "ladies".

Stop him now and stop him hard. We don't want this sort of individual carrying out operations / educating future surgeons / having any part in any of it, do we?

Come on! ACTION NOT REACTION!

WHAT ARE YOU ACTUALLY DOING ABOUT IT? HE SAID "LADIES" FFS!
Osama
Posted - 20 March 2017 12:57
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a surgeon friend described his work as "fvcking fiddly"
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 12:58
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Are you really so dense Carver? It has nothing to do with the word "ladies". It is the fact that as a very senior member of the profession he implied (indeed, although I would need to listen again to be sure, said expressly) that most women were not up to the job. How would that make you feel as a young woman keen on specialising cardiac surgery?

I think to be honest his egoism may be his biggest problem. I don't give a fvck about "punishing" him I do care about the profession making clear his views are not acceptable.
Bright Carver
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:01
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Let's get all of the medical profession who hold such views out immediately.

We will all be better for it.

Are you really so dense, Hank?
Mr Nonsekwita
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:05
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Carver you're going a bit OTT here, no-one is saying he needs to be got out.

If the above is right he didn't just say "ladies", he implied that they weren't clever or tough enough for the job - not great.

Where I do agree with you though is that what this needs is not for him to resign but for him to come back on and say he was wrong to imply that women don't have these traits and that he fully supports women entering the profession (and mean it).

The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:06
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Carver, do you think publically expressing such views as a senior member of a profession is acceptable or not? It is a simple enough question.
sporting_zucchini
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:06
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maybe there has to be some latitude for someone whose surgical skills are needed by actual patients who will die otherwise

only words, m7 - get your priorities straight
Bright Carver
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:07
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Hank - wot sporting_zucchini sed.

Stop being professionally offended at words people say in passing when they're otherwise doing good stuff.
Bright Carver
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:08
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(p.s. and probably much, much better stuff than you or I will ever do)
Clergs (!)
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:10
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what hank said

and what does it say about his attitude to women in general?

will he be prioritising male patients because "he must have a family to support, what what, and a little hypoxic brain injury won't be anything for her to trouble her pretty little head over"?
Clergs (!)
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:10
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"otherwise doing good stuff" is not an excuse

see e.g. Jimmy Savile
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:10
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I can only surmise from your refusal to answer the question that you do think it is acceptable.

I don't think he should lose his job (although if he is thinking about retiring now may be the time to do it) but he should apologise in the manner nonsekwita suggests.
3-ducks
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:19
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Why has the OP put the word ladies in "scare quotes"?
Bright Carver
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:19
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You fancied he should soon be retired having belatedly realised he wasn't already retired, Hank.

I hadn't even realised you'd asked a question.

I think it would have been better had he not implied that "ladies" could not be "tough and clever" / cardiac surgeons.

I don't think he should retire or be hounded out of his post on the back of one comment though, no.

Do you think he should retire or be hounded out of this post on the back of one comment, Hank?
Bright Carver
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:21
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Noting your mealy-mouthed "I don't think he should lose his job (although if he is thinking about retiring now may be the time to do it)", my question still stands, as slightly amended below:

You seem to think he should stop doing what he's currently doing based on this one comment he made - is that right, Hank?
Disaster Zondi
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:24
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I have a m8 who is heart surgeon, has lost loads of patients. I said that must be hard to deal with.

"Yeah it is but then you think it could be worse, it's not like it's you who is dead."
Bright Carver
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:30
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I can only surmise from your refusal to answer the question that you do think he should stop what he's currently doing based on this one comment, Hank.

As above, I think you're looking to be offended and should pause before you make such calls.
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:33
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Do you think he should retire or be hounded out of this post on the back of one comment, Hank?

No.

You seem to think he should stop doing what he's currently doing based on this one comment he made - is that right, Hank?

No.
pancake humper
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:35
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It's the anesthetist that actually has to keep the poor bugger on the table alive while captain fantastic rummages around in their left ventricle anyway.
Bright Carver
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:35
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I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Do you have an actual quote / transcript of what he said in context, please?
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:37
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See, this is the problem, it is not a "molehill" to imply women aren't up to particular high prestige difficult jobs. Especially when it comes from a very respected senior member of the profession.
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:38
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I don't have the transcript no - but it is available on radio player of course.
Tom Linorder
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:38
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the professionally offended are a blight on society.
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:39
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sorry are you saying that this should be allowed to pass without comment and everyone should treat it as a valid view?
Bright Carver
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:40
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"Hank
Posted - 20 March 2017 12:35

Anyone else listen to Start the Week this morning? The panel included retired cardiac surgeon Russell Foster. Incredibly he described how tough and clever you had to be to be a cardiac surgeon (nobody could accuse him of false modesty) before saying that as a result there were not many "ladies" in the profession. This was met with polite silence on the programme but surely there is going to be a backlash?

---

Hank
Posted - 20 March 2017 12:36

oh he is not even retired...I fancy he soon will be... "
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:43
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Clearly an opinion of what will happen, not what should happen. I think he is in his late 60s and when a controversy arises at that age retirement is often the outcome, and it is often the sensible outcome.
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 13:46
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incidently this is very far from "political correctness gone mad" but a clear demonstration of prejudice as to the ability of half of the population to a particular job. Coming from a bloke down the pub it would not particularly matter but coming from a senior member of the profession on national radio it does.
3-ducks
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:07
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Hank, answer my last question pls.
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:13
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what question dux?
Elphi
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:17
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Incredibly he described how tough and clever you had to be to be a cardiac surgeon (nobody could accuse him of false modesty) before saying that as a result there were not many people in the profession.
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:17
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oh I see - I put "ladies" in quotes as it is the word he used and I wanted to make clear it is not a word I would use. I do not of course object to the use of the word per se but I personally find it rather jarring so used quotes.
bananaman returns
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:32
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You've given the wrong name. The surgeon was Stephen Westaby.

The bit is from 26:00 onwards:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08j997k

While there is arguable an implication there, the surgeon was talking about the physical requirements of being a heart surgeon in terms of the mechanics around separating a rib cage.

This is basically fake news. The guy comes across as quite boorish and you have used that plus a misquote to produce a story that isn't there.
the short long
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:39
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The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:40
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Oops sorry for giving wrong name. However, I have re-listened and I still think there is a clear implication that women are not up to the job.
sad banta
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:43
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Hank - where does he say women are not clever enough ? I get that he's making a point about the physicality of chest surgery, but where does he say anything about intellect ?
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:45
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I think he more or less explicitly says they are not up to the task physically (which must surely be bollox) but the implication is that they also do not have the other qualities he considers required by a heart surgeon (which admittedly, in his view, include psychopathic tendancies!)
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:47
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I do admit to wrongly conflating the two heart doctors on the show and if he is now simply a retired old duffer it is less of a concern.
sad banta
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:48
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No, you're projecting. You've got the wrong name, quoted out of context, made up the bit about not being clever enough. It's crap like this that undermines legitimate complaints of sexism.
sad banta
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:49
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Re your 14.47, who's the other heart doctor ?
º¿º
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:50
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The implication is that there are fewer women with the combination of physical strength and psychpathic tendencies, so there are fewer female heart surgeons. Is it wrong to say that even if it is true?
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:51
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I admit I got the wrong name, I never claimed to quote him and was simply paraphrasing, perhaps" tough or strong enough" would have been a better paraphrase than "tough or clever enough" but in any event it was still a blatently sexist comment.
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:54
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"The implication is that there are fewer women with the combination of physical strength and psychpathic tendencies, so there are fewer female heart surgeons. Is it wrong to say that even if it is true."

It is clearly not true - heart surgeons are not selected for their physical strength - and it is impossible to believe that surgical instruments are so crap that they require strength beyond that possessed of women to operate. He used the word pscyhcopathic as a fig leaf of modesty but want he meant was drive ambition and single mindedness. Again he implied women lack this.
the short long
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:54
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retired 70 year makes a sexist statement,,,, why is this news?
sad banta
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:55
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So, who's the other heart doctor ?
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:56
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It is not news, it is a discussion on lawyers forum.
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:56
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other doctor not other heart doctor.
Tee Pottt
Posted - 20 March 2017 14:57
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If anything goes wrong with my heart, give me Jac Naylor anytime.
º¿º
Posted - 20 March 2017 15:02
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"Again he implied women lack this."

Let's assume you're right about surgical equipment and what he actually meant when he used the word psychopathic. I don't agree with you on that given that he went on to talk about how much he enjoyed seeing chest wounds, but let's assume. He implied that fewer women have those traits, not that "women lack them".

That implication can be tested to see if it is true and if, in fact, it is true, is it still wrong to say what he said?
º¿º
Posted - 20 March 2017 15:05
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*and I wouldn't know about the strength needed to use the equipment, but I suspect neither do you. So I'm happy to take him at his word that it needs a certain level of strength, what with him using it thousands of times and all
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 20 March 2017 15:10
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"and I wouldn't know about the strength needed to use the equipment, but I suspect neither do you. So I'm happy to take him at his word that it needs a certain level of strength, what with him using it thousands of times and all "

You think it is more likely that surgical equipment used in hear surgery is not capable of being operated by women because they are too weak than this bloke is a bit sexist? I am afraid that is a serious error of judgment.

If it were true that women were not strong enough operate the equipment and there was no work around then it would be fine to say it. Of course it isn't true.
º¿º
Posted - 20 March 2017 15:21
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Are you trying to be a knight in shining armour on purpose? See above:

"He implied that fewer women have those traits, not that "women lack them""
Mr Nonsekwita
Posted - 20 March 2017 15:38
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Well this has got us nowhere fast
Bright Carver
Posted - 20 March 2017 19:28
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Heh @ Hank getting:

1. wrong name

2. wrong doctor

3. utterly pwned

Trot on, crusader.

FFS.
Asturias es mi patria
Posted - 20 March 2017 20:05
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Heh

He is hopelessly out of date

My Mrs is an Orthopedic Surgeon, she was told the same ok' Shoite 20 years ago about how Othopods are all rugby players so find a more suitable specialty.

As I understand it Technically ability incl a good knowledge of physics helps far more than brut strength

Course it helps that she's was a national level sportswoman but the feckin obv reason there are not as many "ladies " as men doing his work back then is that too many men with his attitude ran the profession

On the other hand she has the "classic " surgeons ability to reduce staff and juniors to tears if they don't hit her standards so swings and roundabouts eh....
Bright Carver
Posted - 20 March 2017 20:10
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Obviously he's hopelessly out of date.

Strongly suspect he could still:

1. Get the right name

2. Get the right doctor

3. Justify his position/statement

4. Not get utterly pwned on ROF about it

though.

The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 21 March 2017 09:46
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Of ffs BC I heard something on the radio while driving and thought I would start a chat about it, yes I got the details wrong because I was going from memory of what I had heard but the point remains valid - the guy is a sexist buffoon.
Third Half
Posted - 21 March 2017 09:55
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I do recall reading some years ago that at the time there was only one female consultant orthopedic surgeon in the English NHS. I am sure I will be corrected if that is not the case. The explanation as I recall was that the time and dedication required to reach that level effectively precluded having a family and since the bread and butter of the specialism was hip replacements it actually required some considerable strength to remove the hip from the pelvis.
Third Half
Posted - 21 March 2017 09:57
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I think I should have said "to remove the femur from the pelvis"
bookem
Posted - 21 March 2017 10:04
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What is it about doctors? Why are they so...doctory.

Are there any normal ones between the Colonel Blimp dickheads and the #OurNHS trots?
Bright Carver
Posted - 21 March 2017 10:05
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The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 21 March 2017 10:08
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Heh at being "a Trot" for wanting to save the NHS.

This guy is very old school - with a God complex the size of a planet. Of course sexism is part of the package
bookem
Posted - 21 March 2017 10:08
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You may be right Serge. They just have a msssive blindspot when it comes to their employer.

And the choir! The endless "We Love teh NHS" dirges! Unforgiveable tbh.
Bright Carver
Posted - 21 March 2017 10:09
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Well, quite.
bookem
Posted - 21 March 2017 10:17
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And they've only got 24 hours to do it, Hank! Or 3 months. Or 5 days. Or whatever it is since the last time there was only an arbitrary amount of time to save the thing that carries on regardless.
bookem
Posted - 21 March 2017 10:19
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Fvk you're trite and boring Serge.
Bright Carver
Posted - 21 March 2017 10:22
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But he can indeed be funny.

YAY! \ /

*does the 'Serge Can Be Funny' dance*
bananaman returns
Posted - 21 March 2017 10:30
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"What a pointless thread" - what are people to do, leave the first post up there and admire it's beauty? The fact is that, if you listen to it, the surgeon uses the term "ladies" once in saying "there are not many ladies in cardiac surgery due to the physical effort required alongside the actual operating skills". He is not saying women are not capable simply by virtue of being women, but is speculating as to why it might be that it is a male dominated branch of surgery. He is not "in hot water" since there's no noting of what he said anywhere in the news (unlike the professor some time ago who was dismissed for making clear sexist comments in a lecture).

Branding everyone who disagrees with your view as a "rightard hysteric" detracts from any valid point you might be making. This is nothing to do with "equality before the law", since as far as I can tell nobody has produced any evidence that this person has discriminated against women in the workplace. Your post is mostly pseudo-intellectual waffle.
º¿º
Posted - 21 March 2017 10:32
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It must be horrible to have thoughts as clear as smeared horse sh1t and then feel the need to spew them on the internet so frequently. Eh serge?
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 21 March 2017 10:36
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He is not saying women are not capable simply by virtue of being women, but is speculating as to why it might be that it is a male dominated branch of surgery

That is completing twisting it - he waxing lyrical about how difficult and heroic the job was and said as an aside (he even apologised for it) that its toughness meant not many ladies did it - yes he linked that directly with physical strength to open up a patient but I think the clear implication was wider than that. He was not exploring why there were so few women in the profession he was boasting about what a difficult job it was.
bananaman returns
Posted - 21 March 2017 10:42
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I don't think we are going to agree on anything, because in the end it comes down to what you think he was implying by extrapolating from a single use of the word "ladies" (happy to be corrected if it was repeated).

The guy seems a total tool, so I don't disagree with that. Based on his demeanour I would also not be surprised if you captured actual sexism if you could follow him around with a recording device.

I am not "having a go" , just wanted to make the facts clear since I think it's important to call out people that are guilty of expressing prejudice but ensure it is fair.I wouldn't have bothered with the follow up but can't stand the juvenile branding of people as righttards/rightards/remoaners etc.

Bright Carver
Posted - 21 March 2017 10:43
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Whereas we all know it's a fvcking piece of p1ss, isn't it?

Bright Carver
Posted - 21 March 2017 10:43
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^ was to Hank's 10:36 ^
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 21 March 2017 10:46
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"Whereas we all know it's a fvcking piece of p1ss, isn't it?"

No, it is no doubt a difficult job, but I equally have no doubt women are capable of doing it and one of the reasons so few do is because they face outdated attitudes like his.
Bright Carver
Posted - 21 March 2017 10:51
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Well, just don't come straight onto ROF moaning if you ever need your rib cage cracking open sharpish, Hank. Or some heavy boxes lifting. Or if there's a big spider.
º¿º
Posted - 21 March 2017 10:59
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Fvckin hell you're all over the place mentally.
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 21 March 2017 11:02
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fair enough Bananaman, I admit my initial post was factually incorrect and my paraphrasing could have been better - I stand by the thrust of my point though and am surprised so many people in 2017 still seem to think that sort of attitude is fine.
Bright Carver
Posted - 21 March 2017 11:52
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