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strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 09:58
Lib Dems, obviously.

\ /
Wellington
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:00
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A vote for anyone but the lib dems is a vote for racism, ignorance and poverty.
200 Sleeps To Christmas
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:01
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Although a vote for LibDems is a vote for a homophobic pro-Life evangelical PM.
Brad's big donger
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:03
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Vote conservative
Shooter
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:03
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Anna - can you give a little more detail please? My head is saying Lib Dems but I'm not actually sure why. Do you think it will genuinely make a difference? Could it actually change the course of the current Brexit warship?

Genuine questions. I'm perplexed.

Same to you Wellington. I try not to vote for racism, ignorance and poverty but would like a little more meat on the bone as it were.
Back to Cyprian :)
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:03
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If you vote Lib Dems and they win, that's good.

If you vote Lib Dems and the Tories win, that's bad, but... every seat they lose, every vote they lose, will show them that they are less popular than 2015. Across the country it's a firm pointer that their policies are not as popular as they would have us believe.

TM wants to use this election as a mandate for Hard Brexit.

In her own words:



"Every vote for the Conservatives will make it harder for opposition politicians who want to stop me from getting the job done.

"Every vote for the Conservatives will make me stronger when I negotiate for Britain with the prime ministers, presidents and chancellors of the European Union.

"Every vote for the Conservatives means we can stick to our plan for a stronger Britain and take the right long-term decisions for a more secure future.





This is how Chancellor becomes Emperor...
Shooter
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:04
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As helpful as the short and sweet "Vote conservative / vote lib dems" replies are, I'm aware that those are my options right now. What I'm looking for is the why...

strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:06
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What CYP said above. ^^^

May is already inventing this narrative where the country is coming together and uniting behind Brexit, which she believes gives her the mandate she needs to pursue the hardest Brexit possible. Every vote for the Lib Dems (or Labour/SNP/Greens) proves that she is wrong.

I'm also very concerned about the sweeping new powers in the Great Repeal Bill.
Shooter
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:07
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Thank you Lib Dem Cyp. I know I should read up more about this, and plan on doing just that. Do you think that TM is genuinely hard brexit, or do you think that so far she's just been taking that stance to (1) show a firm hand to Europe, and (2) keep the tory hard brexit loonies on side?
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:07
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I mean, if nothing else, the Lib Dems have been saying for ages that we should have an opportunity to vote on the eventual Brexit deal once it is known. The Tories are saying, "No, you voted for what was in the mystery box, now it's up to us to deliver something and you have no further role in deciding what it is."

Doesn't that scare you?
Shooter
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:08
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Thanks Anna. Sounds like I didn't realise that TM was all about a hard brexit. I was hoping that with a bigger majority the Tories may soften their stance a bit. That doesn't appear to be the case from what you're saying.

I shall investigate this further.
Jon Snow
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:09
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I'm in the same boat.

My rationale is that voting Tory might result in a stronger majority meaning TMPM won't need to pander to the hard right, but that is predicated on the idea that TMPM isn't really as hard right as she's making out. And frankly, I don't trust her.

A vote for the LibDems will at worst leave us in a similar position to where we are already, and at best will create the possibility of a coalition that would negotiate a soft Brexit.
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:12
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I think Theresa May is all about power.

Europe has never been the biggest issue for her up until now. She was never a real head banger about it like Jacob Rees-Mogg and his ilk. I think she backed remain because she wasn't completely ideologically opposed to the EU, she thought remaining was the economically sensible thing to do, and she thought we would vote to remain so she'd have backed the winning horse.

Then after leave won and all the Brexiteers shat their pants and dropped out of the leadership contest, she saw it as the ideal opportunity to grab power. Because of the influence of the hard Brexiteers, she thinks that the only way to stay in power is to deliver the hardest Brexit possible. If it goes wrong she can say she was only following the will of the people.

Her attitude towards civil liberties, the "Go Home" vans and her very conservative upbringing are a good indication that she has no real issue lurching sharply to the right if that is the way she thinks the prevailing wind is blowing.
.....Meh
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:15
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My constituency is labour. My MP seems like a decent bloke. But he took some chuffing brexit related post and didn't vote against it. So ideally I'd vote lib dem now which fits my fairly middle of the road views. But I'm going to have to go with labour again, aren't I?
Soft BreNexis
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:16
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My initial reaction is to turn to the Lib Dems. I am concerned that a strong Tory majority will be seen as a mandate for the hardest of hard Brexits. I also think the Tories have lurched too far to the right to appease the Kippers, so Brexit aside I would have concerns about voting for them again.
Shooter
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:19
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I don't want a hard Brexit. I don't really want any Brexit but I don't think that 'no Brexit' is a real choice any more.

I was hoping that TM wasn't as hard brexit as she appears to be, but that hope is now waining.
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:24
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Put it this way.

If the Tories win with a small majority, we are in the same position we are in now.

If they win with a huge majority, it could be that Theresa May pursues a softer Brexit because she no longer needs the approval of the real head bangers. But the problem with that is that a huge Tory majority will be interpreted as overwhelming support for their hard Brexit policy.

If the Tories pick up an extra 50 or so seats, it will be much harder to argue that a sizeable proportion of the electorate really don't want this and there needs to be some kind of compromise.

She won't need the swivel-eyed loons to get her legislation passed, but you can guarantee they will be standing up in the Commons saying, "you've got all the mandate you need now, the public overwhelmingly supports hard Brexit, so get on with it."

Every vote for the Lib Dems is a vote against hard Brexit.
Saillaw
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:29
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I think her TM's thinking is along the lines that a bigger majority means less reliance on the hard core anti-EU Tories so that she can deliver a softer Brexit and reduces the risk that ongoing domestic arguments about whether Parliament gets to vote on the final outcome delay us deciding on the final outcome until after the end of the two year period and another general election.
Back to Cyprian :)
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:30
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TM is hard on immigration. She doesn't care much about anything else. The EU is keen on migration, amongst a great many other things.

Initially TM played hard brexit as a threat. But the EU said - "if that's what you want, please feel free".

She thought that the EU will see a complete severing of the UK/EU relationship as something to fear (WHO WILL DRINK THE PROSECCO!!!!!!). But the EU is taking a longer view - they would prefer a painful brexit if it means the EU remains strong and solid afterwards (it's about strength of the bloc, not about trade in the short term).

TM has now been set on a hard brexit course.

The only thing that can change direction that is a clear collapse in the Tory vote (even if she wins). That will allow her some room to say "I guess we need to soften this a bit".

If she holds the same/better position, she will have no other choice but to determine that the public want a full-English Hard brexit .

minkie
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:30
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I dont believe she is all about hard Brexit and that a bigger majority will ease off the hard right.
When she started out all the people wwho knew her said she is the type to take ages to make up her mind about things but on e decided she is resolite. This is not how it has panned out for her it has been a steep learning curve and she is oit of comfort zone and thats why she has gambled on a bigger majority so she can make decisions and stick to her guns without having to appease factions.

I think thats what she means about getting the job done wihth a bigger majority.
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:32
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But if "the job" means hard Brexit, then we should put as many obstacles in her way as possible, minkie.
Weally Been
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:33
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See the thread I started on this but I simply don't get the logic that the better the Tories do less the somehow less total the Brexit will be

Brexit means Brexit
minkie
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:33
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However, the campaign will be interesting. Will she campaign on hard Brexit ie keep on with way they are going or will she finally spell out how she sees it going softer without interference.

No need to decide now.
stardust
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:34
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Shooter, I am pretty much in exactly the same position as you are. I am going to bide my time and see how things pan out re manifestos and stuff. It's all a huge mess.
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:35
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If she even hints at going softer then she will lose votes to UKIP.
Shooter
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:36
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Minkie - that's what I'm thinking right now. The manifesto's and public statements will influence me heavily. My worry is that she won't want to be seen as pushing a softer Brexit in the run up to the election.
Back to Cyprian :)
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:38
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let me be clear - the only way there will be a softening of Brexit is if the will of the british people demonstrates that the current (HARD) brexit is unpalatable.

If she wins a greater majority, if the margin in each "win" seat is increased, she will call it as a message that she (and her current trajectory) is popular.

If you don't like this abyss we're headed for, vote for Lib Dem. Even if your Lib Dem vote counts for nothing and your seat remains Tory. The only way your vote will matter is if it doesn't go for a Tory candidate. However, if you want full on hard brexit, vote Tory.
minkie
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:39
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The other thing that is weird right now ( and I thought this after Corbyn won leadership last year) is that here on the Right we have May, a Remainer who is now leading us into Brexit, whereas on the Left we have Corbyn who has always been as Eurosceptic as it comes now having to talk about how best to do soft BRexit. Dysfunctional or what?
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:41
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What CYP said x 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
stardust
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:42
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minkie - also, I find that Corbyn really hasn't spoken out against the EU much has he? It's very much a balancing act. Sometimes I do wonder if bipartisan politics is rather outdated.
Weally Been
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:43
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I agree with May that it shouldn't be termed a hard Brexit, it's a clean Brexit

And just to be clear the only reason why the ground is being prepared for a clean Brexit is precisely because the EU is adamant there will be no nice deal, so you have to be prepared to walk away without one
Jon Snow
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:44
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What evidence is there that she doesn't believe in a hard Brexit now Minkie?

She has not done a single thing since becoming PM to suggest she doesn't mean what she says. She's gone further with the hard right rhetoric than has been strictly necessary to secure her position. The whole idea that she is a secret soft Brexiteer/closet Remainer is entirely based on conjecture.
The harbinger of sanity
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:47
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What Cyp said, the Lib Dems will not win this election, 40-50 seats would be a great result, but the more votes they get the harder it is for May to claim that the country has come together for a hard Brexit. Her narrative is that people are as one and it is just moaning minnies in Westminster raising concerns. This must not be allowed to stand.
Back to Cyprian :)
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:48
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Clean Brexit?


Is that the new spin?

PM - this HARD Brexit is polling badly, so we've decided to rebrand it as Clean Brexit. Y'know, like Clean Diesel we made up 15 years ago? Clean Coal too. And Clean Paedophiles.
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 10:50
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Heh @ "clean paedophiles"
Weally Been
Posted - 19 April 2017 11:09
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If you don't want it to stand then you'll better make sure May doesn't win the election won't you - because she's going to

Clean Brexit isn't new spin - the government have been calling it that for some time now

Brexit means Brexit
Saillaw
Posted - 19 April 2017 11:10
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UKIP have said they'll field 500 candidates but are only focusing on 5 seats so will there really be much of a swing if they're putting up random punters with little support in most places?
Jon Snow
Posted - 19 April 2017 11:10
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And wanker means wanker. Do I win bullsh1t bingo?
Weally Been
Posted - 19 April 2017 11:21
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Yeah I'm terrified

Terrified of the huge size of the Tory majority coming up
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 11:24
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If UKIP want to waste their money Saillaw, that's fine by me.
minkie
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:16
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I think you're all forgetting that our overlords in Brussels have taken a very hard line over Brexit. They have said a great deal about what they will not agree to. So May has few choices in her responses until negotiations actually start. She cant roll over at this stage can she?

I think there a lot of posturing still at the moment. And without going all BREXIT!!, a bigger majority gives her strength to face off with Brussels.
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:26
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minkie is more of a Tory headbanger than I previously realised...
I like straight bananas
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:36
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May's whole justification for this election is bollocks.

There was no opposition to what she's been trying to do anyway. The Labour Party supported the article 50 declaration. Some Lords sent stuff back to the commons once and then wavied it through at the second time of asking, which happens all the time and is regarded as a hint to take another look at detail rather than any kind of rebellion. May's going on about the Lib Dem's threatening to bring the process to a halt but there are only nine Lib Dem MPs. NINE OF THEM.

Despite this she talks about saboteurs as if the mere act of asking to scrutinise any deal she comes back with is a form of treason. They haven't even interrupted the process. They've just said they want to look at and vote on the deal when she brings it back so they can reject it if it's rubbish. May believes she should be allowed to proceed to run the country and make deals on its behalf without any form of scrutiny.

She needs to be disabused of this notion. THAT'S why you should vote Lib Dem. Because otherwise our democracy goes down the shitter.
Weally Been
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:40
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Minkie that's a very common sense view and this being rof it's very unusual to see anything like that so well done
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:41
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Heh @ minkie's wibblings about "overlords in Brussels" being common sense, rather than Daily Mail worthy bilge.
Used Psychology
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:48
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In terms of this idea of going to the country and getting a political mandate for the type of Brexit deal she wants is fine.

But the Greeks tried that in the middle of their debt negotiations.

The response from the EU countries was effectively "We've all got mandates and we all have to do what we believe is in our national and collective interest. Yours is slightly newer and shinier than ours, but it doesn't invalidate our arguments".

So her idea that she will be put in a better position boils down to "I'm tired of listening to MPs. Help make them go away please". She wants power without the hassle of accountability to people opposed to her point of view.
Back to Cyprian :)
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:48
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"a bigger majority gives her strength to face off with Brussels."

hhahahahahaha.


Do you think the "overlords" are sitting there saying - "she wants to keep the banking passport? No way! Unless she gets a bigger majority in this shamefully self-serving election! Then we will roll over for a tummy tickle".

The only thing a larger majority means is that she will take it as the will of the people that she be given free reign to do what she thinks is best, and anyone questioning or seeking to express an opinion on it is going against the will of the people.
I like straight bananas
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:48
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Weally Been
Posted - 19 April 2017 16:40 Report as offensive Report Offensive
Minkie that's a very common sense view and this being rof it's very unusual to see anything like that so well done


Yes. Well done minkie. Good girl.
minkie
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:27
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Scoff all you like but members of the EU have to agree in large numbers to whatever is proposed - they have the whip hand. So yes, in this, overlords.

Which is precisely why brexit is such a shitfest which should never have happened.

I know I could be 100% wrong about May, I am not going to insist I am right anout her, I am just saying what I think is the case. I am very keen to se what line she takes in the campaign and Im not making up my mind just yet which way I'll vote.
Used Psychology
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:31
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Heh@overlords.

You do get it is very hard to be an overlord of someone who is a senior part part of the overlordship(?).

Whiskers is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:43
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"Part of me is thinking: "the Lib Dems are the 'Remain' party, so vote for them". That said, do I think they'll get enough of a vote to actually make any difference? Not sure. Thoughts on this welcome."

If enough people vote Lib Dem, it will make a difference.

If everyone thinks, oh, I won't vote [Lib Dem], it won't make any difference, then nothing would ever change.

Sounds like you are in a constituency where voting Lib Dem COULD actually make a difference.

VOTE LIB DEM

minkie
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:55
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Why would millioms of people suddenly vote Lib Dem when they have been abandoning them for years? The line about it being a wasted vote has been around since the 1970s and it aint going to change now. They frittered their moral high ground on the student fees saga.

It isnt very long ago we wrote off the Lib Dems as a loony irrelevance. Yes they will enjoy some anti Tory backlash and some puzzledd Lab voters who dont understand what Lab is doing with Corbyn but it wont be a seismic movement.

Earlier today Tim Farron was slient on the subject of whether or not he would join a Con coalition ( and Im not sure why the question was posed) but seriously?!.!? Is that how you see things panning out again?
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:57
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Minkie, it's really not complicated. If you see Brexit for the terrible clusterfuck it is, you vote for the party which (a) promises to abandon or seriously water down Brexit, and (b) is most likely to beat the Tories in your constituency.

Jesus, it's not fvcking rocket science.
I like straight bananas
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:03
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Jesus, it's not fvcking rocket science.

Well quite. And when one thinks that the people you are posting too are, on the whole, at the higher educated end of the spectrum, it becomes obvious why some people fell for Boris Johnson and the lies on the side of the bus.
Jon Snow
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:08
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minkie
Posted - 19 April 2017 17:55
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Why would millioms of people suddenly vote Lib Dem when they have been abandoning them for years? The line about it being a wasted vote has been around since the 1970s and it aint going to change now. They frittered their moral high ground on the student fees saga.


Er, I'm going to. I decided they were off the list of options after the coalition crap. Now, I've even donated to their fund. I have never given money to a political party ever.

You seriously fvcking underestimate how angry some people are about (a) Brexit and (b) the Torys' role in it.
minkie
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:08
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Are you talking about tactical voting here or do you want or expect to see the Lib Dems in power?
I do not want to see the Lib Dems in power (i did a long time ago but not now).
minkie
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:10
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Who have you switched from Jon?
Lab to Lib - yes I see that
Con to Lib - less likely to happen in numbers
Jon Snow
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:11
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I'm a swing voter. I've voted Labour last time, and voted Tory the two elections before that.
I like straight bananas
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:15
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I will be voting Lib Dem as well.

As far as power goes, I don't really mind. A government is for 5 years max. Brexit is for ever. I'd be quite happy for a Lib Dem government or five years if they threw Bexit out and introduced a different electoral system. I'd be quite happy if we never had a majority government again and all business had to be done by compromise and negotiation.
strongly unstable
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:17
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Minkie, you seem to have missed the point of this election. This election is about Brexit and nothing else.

The Lib Dems can't win a general election because the system is designed to ensure that the Tories almost always win, with the opposition party winning occasionally to give people the misleading impression that their vote actually counts and we are not living in a single party state. Aside from opposing Brexit, electoral reform is the single biggest issue facing the country, but sadly most people haven't woken up to that yet.

The point of voting Lib Dem is not to have a Lib Dem government. It is to try to stop the Brexit catastrofuck.

Every single one of the 48%, plus those who were too young or couldn't be arsed to vote in the referendum, or who voted leave and now regrets it, should be voting Lib Dem or for whichever party can beat the Tories in their constituency (if they have got any sense whatsoever).

Because then Theresa May will at least have to stop pretending that the country is uniting behind Brexit. No it fvcking well isn't.
Jon Snow
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:21
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Minkie, there are two reasons I would even vote for Corbyn if he was the only other choice:

1. May's various attempts to subvert democracy by trying to by-pass parliament. The whole fvcking rationale for this election appears to be that she objects to opposition. Her totalitarian attitude scares the crap out of me,

2. The most insulting thing she has ever said: "The country is coming together..." NO WE FVCKING AREN'T!
minkie
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:23
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Army boy - spoken verbatim by my father just before he died you have brought back happy memories ! You sound like a natural for Lib Dems.

Swing voters - yes i can see big appeal for lib dems there if people angry about brexit. BUT I still dont think there are millions who care that much, sorry. There are a lot of people out there bored with the whole thing, wont vote or vote as they usually do.
Jon Snow
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:27
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Fair enough. I think you may be exceedingly blinkered by your political partisanship though, and you are definitely out of touch with how angry people are still on the topic.
minkie
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:28
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But what about how Corbyn deals with opposition (in his party I mean)? The thuggish way he dealt with Lab party members when he was threatened last year and over selection?

Look Im not arguing with you really, its none of my business anyway, i asked you the qu and you have answered it, Im just in contrary mood today
Jon Snow
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:32
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I hate unions and think Corbyn is an utter tosser who is unfit to govern his way out of a paper bag. AND I would still vote for him over TM now thanks to her handling of Brexit.
I like straight bananas
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:34
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I'm glad for that minkie. I hope it stirs you to vote for the Lib Dems on the day.
Used Psychology
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:39
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Polling suggests (only suggests) that people feel their Referendum vote was more important than their previous GE votes, particularly for remainers.

Richmond is an example of where a LibDem swing can bring about change.

Even Copeland saw a 4% swing for the LibDems.

So this election is completely up for grabs, hence May is seeking to eliminate reasons to vote UKIP and hopefully kill off UKIP as a threat to the Tory party.
I like straight bananas
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:44
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It is interesting that the biggest attack so far today has been on Tim Farron with the questioning of his feelings about homosexuality - an attempt to alienate him from his core support. He's been attacked harder than Corbyn or Sturgeon so far. I think he is regarded as the biggest threat. After losing the by-election last month it's clear Corbyn is already toast.
Jon Snow
Posted - 19 April 2017 18:50
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Interesting reading on my local internet forum - lots of confirmed Tories saying they'll vote LibDem.
FourthPartyRights
Posted - 19 April 2017 19:32
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I'm a Con->LD switcher
minkie
Posted - 19 April 2017 20:34
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But wasnt Richmond always a Lib stronghold until Zak rode in on his handsome white charger?
minkie
Posted - 19 April 2017 20:35
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Also London is different to rest of UK in terms of colour
Terence Brent D'arby
Posted - 19 April 2017 20:44
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They really should be cleaning up in SW London, Oxford, Cambridge and any other remain constituency where the local Tory MP is being held hostage by the swivel eyed Thames Estuary brigade. If they can't take those seats then they will have fvcked up massively somewhere along the way.
Terence Brent D'arby
Posted - 19 April 2017 20:48
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Heh - except Cambridge is a labour seat. Point still stands
Shooter
Posted - 20 April 2017 09:51
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So this is getting even more complicated

The media (admittedly spearheaded by the Mail) seem to be suggesting that May's manifesto will be very much Hard Brexit - clear on leaving the single market, red lines on immigration etc. That just sways me towards the Lib Dems.

Then I hear that Lab / Greens / SNP / Lib Dems are potentially making some pact to try and rout the Tories. That sways me back towards the Tories.

50 more days of this. Great.
Terence Brent D'arby
Posted - 20 April 2017 09:55
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'Then I hear that Lab / Greens / SNP / Lib Dems are potentially making some pact to try and rout the Tories.'

It seems not:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/19/greens-urge-labour-and-lib-dems-t o-form-electoral-pact-to-defeat-tories