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97 Sleeps To Christmas
Posted - 21 April 2017 10:57
To be fair, silencing the likes of Corbyn, Abbott, Nugee and McDonnell might stop them haemorrhaging votes.
old git roundabout
Posted - 21 April 2017 11:12
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starring Dawn Butler, presumably
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 21 April 2017 11:33
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old git roundabout
Posted - 21 April 2017 11:12
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starring Dawn Butler, presumably

Nope, she'll be too busy drinking coffee from non-tax paying Costa. Sorry, tax paying Costa. Umm, I'm sure somebody sells coffee without paying tax. Look, I'll get back to you on that. Once I've stopped defaming companies. Look, there IS someone who doesn't pay all their tax. I KNOW there is. Probably. Can I run the country please?
old git roundabout
Posted - 21 April 2017 11:35
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you'd first have to rig the system by holding an election
EuroPrepper
Posted - 21 April 2017 11:36
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Dawn is the one who said Mrs. May is stealing the elwction and shutting down democracy, isn't she? And then promplty went and voted for dissolution and an election.

Woman of her word, that one.
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 21 April 2017 12:03
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Merman: she was no doubt making the quite reasonable point that the Tory Party should not have a monopoly of shutting down democracy (albeit by the fascinating route of err.... holding an election).
Henry IV Part II
Posted - 21 April 2017 12:06
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Dawn butler is a moron. It is a damning indictment of our democracy that she ever got selected as a candidate and then votes in as an MP. I
Osama
Posted - 21 April 2017 12:09
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"June always ends May", our Dawn
old git roundabout
Posted - 21 April 2017 12:10
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and of Corbyn for putting her on the Front Bench. And of Milne for allowing her to speak for Labour on a grown up radio programme.
Osama
Posted - 21 April 2017 12:11
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#prayforhercarsickness
Henry IV Part II
Posted - 21 April 2017 12:13
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I simply cannot understand why labour are co img up with nonsense about rigging democracy when there is a far easier and more truthful line of attack. May has previously made clear that she thought an early election would be destabilising, nothing has changed since then except the Tory lead in the polls has grown - she is quite blatently (as Cameron did before her) putting party needs and her personal ambition above the needs of the country
old git roundabout
Posted - 21 April 2017 12:18
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she thinks the country needs a Tory government. Same can be said of other party leaders.
Osama
Posted - 21 April 2017 12:21
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makes me chortle we cant have indyref2, but.....
Henry IV Part II
Posted - 21 April 2017 12:26
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Ogr she is blatantly lying about the reason for calling the election - she is not even trying to lie convincingly - that is what to call her on - not rigging democracy
old git roundabout
Posted - 21 April 2017 12:32
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well fair enough to make that point, Hank, shame Labour is so incompetent it can't manage to do so, and made itself look ridiculous in the process.

They should bring the Legz Akimbo theatre group back together - you can't stop theatre!
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 21 April 2017 12:51
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I was in the army y'know
Posted - 21 April 2017 12:21

It's quite impressive the way that you've chosen the least significant item on the list and managed to make a whole thread of smug out of it.

It's just awful when people do the smug thing, isn't? And so dull. We'd all much rather you posted some more today about how rich you are and how you shag so many people...
bookem
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:32
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"there is a far easier and more truthful line of attack"."she is quite blatently (as Cameron did before her) putting party needs and her personal ambition above the needs of the country"

Just to be clear Hank - you think the opposition line on this should be that the needs of the country are for the existing Tory government to stay in place? Do you work for Lynton Crosby?
Henry IV Part II
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:34
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no - what on earth makes you think that?
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:34
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Army: you've got buttons!!! You posh bastard.
Henry IV Part II
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:37
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The pointis that she has said a dozen times what she believes are in the best interests of the country - a period of stable government with no early election - but has decided taking advantage of poll numbers before the Brexit economic shitstorm kicks in is more important
bookem
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:40
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Yes she is.

But I don't think there's any non-ridiculous attack line over it (other than to say she flipflops - but then everyone always says that about everyone else).

The oppo are over a barrel on this point. They should just ignore it.
Henry IV Part II
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:42
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It is not ridiculous to entirely correctly and fairly call out the PM for telling lies
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:50
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But Corbyn's a naive ass with little or no idea of strategy

It's worse than that. He genuinely believes he's above playing games where popular sovereignty is concerned. Blocking an election, even temporarily, was never going to fly with him. It's the same half-baked populism that led him to call for Article 50 to be triggered immediately after the referendum result was announced.
minkie
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:51
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This argument of May cynically calling for a GE is self-limiting now that virtually every MP has voted in favour, I agree, get on to the more relevant issues. Give us some concrete examples of rigging the system which dont involve policies Lab have voted for.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:57
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I am really tired of people telling me I can and can't talk about.

If you don't like it, read something else.


Are you new to Rof or something?
minkie
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:58
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I didnt mean you silly I meant the bint on the radio
bookem
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:08
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They rig the system by taking the system and rigging it. That's what I' trying to tell you!

The system is obviously rigged as a consequence of the actions of system riggers!



ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:10
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wat
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:14
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It's FPTP that's kept Ukip out of Parliament (almost completely). Don't knock it.

There's a case for constitutional reform, but it should be something about the Lords. FPTP is very good at keeping out extremists.
minkie
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:15
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I think that is supposed to be the idea army boy. SO that we dont lurch from one extreme to another. Or at least that was how it was explained to me many uears ago.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:16
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And "fraud"? The people voted for FPTP by a large margin in 2011. If it is indeed a fraud, the voters are both perpetrators and victims.
bookem
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:16
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The status quo is good.

We have slow change. The continentals wave their hands around and shout for a while then have a revolution.

Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:20
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I was in the army y'know
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:43
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It's not like you to attack the man and not the ball Soto.

And just to really rub it in, I have zippers, hooks and eyes and an anorak with velcro.

But just last week I saw a 25 ft yacht that was being kitted out for a transatlantic crossing gor for £705 on ebay. It needed a hatch refitting to make waterproof but otherwise it was about ready to go. If you spent £1000 and a couple of weekends on it in addition to purchase fee you could have fitted out the inside beautiful and probably resold it for £10k or maybe more. Being that size marina fees would not be high either.

1. You posh parka-wearing ponce, you.

2. Lydia posted "Well. I say 'island'. It's just a few hundred acres off Panama, really only a week-end retreat, but we like to think of it as our little island. Anyway, I'm not so vulgar as to talk about such things, so I tend not to mention it much. I currently having ideas about buying Columbia so we've got somewhere to stretch our legs. What do you think?"
Henry IV Part II
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:29
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Reggie it is not good at keeping out extremists it just means they have to join more mainstream parties - if we did not have FPTP Corbyn/momentum and moderate labour would be 2 different parties - john redwood would not be in the same party as ken Clarke etc etc
old git roundabout
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:30
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Sighers, sounds like you are 'Just about Managing'.

Vote Tory
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:32
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Reggie it is not good at keeping out extremists it just means they have to join more mainstream parties - if we did not have FPTP Corbyn/momentum and moderate labour would be 2 different parties - john redwood would not be in the same party as ken Clarke etc etc

This is another way of saying that we get coalition government whatever option we take - the difference is that FPTP forces the coalitions to form before the election rather than after it.

I do think we should have electoral reform, but it should be confined to an elected Lords.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:37
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Just to be clear, is it your stance that there was majority support among the voters for replacing FPTP in 2011?
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:39
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And if you want to avoid extremes and have government based on broad consensus then coalition government is the best way to achieve it. People will actually have to agree rather than one side imposing their will on the other and then the other attempting to undo the work of the first when their turn comes around. That's a ridiculous way to run a country.

I'm sympathetic to this point of view, and I've argued for it myself in the past, but I can honestly say that my mind has been changed by the rise of Ukip. Keeping them out of the Commons has stunningly vindicated the current system IMO.

I agree that there needs to more consensus rather than winner-takes-all, but that can be achieved through a reformed elected Lords.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:43
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I also think that the 2011 poll was fvcked with to the point that it is useless as a guide to intentions then or now

That is the bit that interests me. I've heard many things about electoral misconduct in the last few years, but I've honestly never before heard that claim that the 2011 poll was wrongfully conducted. This is a genuinely new one on me. What are you saying happened?
97 Sleeps To Christmas
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:47
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Reggie, what do you think of Carswell's suggestion of reverting to two member constituencies (which then halve in number) such that the first and second place on each ballot get in?
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:48
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That's a clever idea, but I think we should keep the current system for the Commons.
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:53
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Come off it, Army, Paraguay? It's hardly big enough to hold a decent point-to-point.

Just buy Mexico and use Paraguay as a wood shed, or maybe somewhere to put the super-annuated servants.
EuroPrepper
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:53
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I agree with you. I think if we HAD to have some form of reform his might be the best option.
97 Sleeps To Christmas
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:55
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You're not agreeing with me! I didn't say I liked the idea, I just asked what Reggie thought of it.

I suppose it is at least pretty transparent and simple to adopt, and it would mean fewer supposedly 'meaningless' votes.

On balance though I think Reggie is right, don't do it for the Commons.

Carswell would also want it tied to open primaries for the reselection of all MPs. I think there is sense in that.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 14:58
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Primaries sound good in theory, but I don't think they'd work in the UK. People just won't turn out for them. I don't think the experiments so far have really worked.
97 Sleeps To Christmas
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:01
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They did produce some interesting results when used - e.g. Dr Sarah Wollaston.

I think people would show up where there was sufficient interest, which is surely what is needed. The problem now is that reselection is just a local committee led stitch up.
EuroPrepper
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:02
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UKIP had something like 120 second plaxes last time, and 4m votes. Carswell's plan would see many more UKIP Mps, Farage included, getting voted in.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:03
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Heh. Imagine Laz trying to win a selection primary!
97 Sleeps To Christmas
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:03
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Heh! You're not selling it to Reggie...or me!
97 Sleeps To Christmas
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:03
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Reggie - almost worth moving to the constituency to watch.
Henry IV Part II
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:29
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There is nothing wrong with parties forming coalitions after the election based on their electoral strength - just as happened in 2010. Trouble with current system (even leaving aside the inherent problem of wasted votes and disconnect between seats and share of vote ) is that people cannot really vote for what they want - whether you are a blairite or a corbynista you only get one labour candidate to vote for and it is pot luck who you get. The main alternative government option is now far left even though far more of the electorate would prefer a more centre left alternative. The list of anomalies and injusrptices with FPTP is endless. My view is that we should have FPTP for half MPs to maintain the sttrenghts of having constituency MPs and half vote in by PR from party lists with a 5 per cent minimum share requirement
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:31
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That's the German system, which does seem to work over there. But it would let Ukip in. Ergo.
Henry IV Part II
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:32
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it would have given them 35 seats - so what?
97 Sleeps To Christmas
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:34
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Reggie, do you not think UKIP's fox has been shot now?

Are you really meaning you don't want whatever extremist party that follows UKIP - left or right - to get a toehold?

In which case, fair enough.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:34
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That's 34 more than I'm comfortable with.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:36
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248 Sleeps To Christmas
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:34 Report as offensive Report Offensive
Reggie, do you not think UKIP's fox has been shot now?

Are you really meaning you don't want whatever extremist party that follows UKIP - left or right - to get a toehold?


Yes, it's not just Ukip. Ukip has opened my eyes to a wider problem. The French made the same mistake when they briefly had PR in the 1980s - that's when Le Pen originally broke onto the national stage. They rapidly switched back to the present system.
Henry IV Part II
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:39
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you can't form a view on an electoral system based around a dislike of one particular party. I agree there is a risk of extremists holding disproportionate power but in reality this won't happen because they will only get one coalition option and will have to cow-tow to the larger party. Only centrist parties get more than one option and even then have limited influmce on the bigger partner viz lib dems in 2010
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:39
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Would you mind answering my question about the 2011 referendum, please? Just for completeness.
Henry IV Part II
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:41
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Our system actually allows extremists to do quite well in certain circs - Corbyn will get around one third of the seats in parliament even though probably about 10 per cent of the country is with him
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:45
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I agree there is a risk of extremists holding disproportionate power but in reality this won't happen because they will only get one coalition option and will have to cow-tow to the larger party.

It's not as simple as that. Even if an extreme party is kept out of government - as with Wilders in the Netherlands - the very need to work around that party affects the decisions and options available to the other parties. I'm going to break Godwin's Law at this point and say that this is what did for the Weimar Republic. The Nazis' achievement wasn't to win a majority (they didn't, until the rigged election of 1933), it was to win just enough seats, together with the Communists, to stop mainstream politicians from being able to form stable governments and conduct politics as usual.

I agree, somewhat reluctantly, that even Ukippers deserve to have representation in Parliament, but I think it should be done via the second chamber, where they would have some say on the legislative process but wouldn't be able to affect government formation.
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:46
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Corbyn's MPs aren't hardline Corbynistas, though. They've shown themselves willing to vote against him in Westminster.
Henry IV Part II
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:52
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Reggie - the wiener republic was not a mature democracy and the situation made it vulnerable to fascist take over whatever the electoral system - and new parties can rise to take over even under our system - just as Labour did. The difference is if you can get 40 % of the vote you basically get absolute free reign with no need for any compromise even though 60 % of the country is against you. 50% and you will get just about every seat (see SNP in Scotland).

FPTP just about works in a 2 party system but any more parties than that and it is a travesty
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:53
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The difference is if you can get 40 % of the vote you basically get absolute free reign with no need for any compromise even though 60 % of the country is against you.

That is a very good argument for an elected second chamber with powers to check the Commons.
Henry IV Part II
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:56
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I do agree with you on that a second chamber elected by PR with the absolute power to block legislation would be an acceptable alternative to my proposal
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:59
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I think it should have the power to delay stuff until after the next election, much like the original House of Lords.

The Commons matters because it's the source of executive power. I don't so much mind minority parties having limited input into legislation via a second chamber.
bookem
Posted - 21 April 2017 16:05
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"The Commons matters because it's the source of executive power."


Exactly. Executive power is derived from a mandate of the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Henry IV Part II
Posted - 21 April 2017 16:05
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Ah in that case I am afraid we do not have accord - the second chamber needs senate like powers otherwise we would be in the ridiculous situation of having the chamber that better represents the wishes of the people being subordinate to the other
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 16:11
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I don't think it was wrongfully conducted in the sense of breaching electoral regulations. I think the behaviour of the tory party and the no campaign was poor. The bill to permit the referendum was plagued from the beginning. Originally it was meant to be part of an electoral reform act along with fixed term parliaments but somehow it got shunted aside and made into a whole new thing which hurt its reputation from the beginning. Coverage was negative. The no campaign lied about the costs and suggested that AV would cause hung parliaments even though statistics show this not to be true. Osborne even lied that av would require new voting machines at extra expense at polling booths. There was a whole parcel of bollox told during that referendum. In many ways it was probably the model for the "out" side in the EU referendum. Perhaps we all should have paid more attention.


This is all just politics as usual. Politicians say stuff that isn't true non-shocka. You could say the same about every election and referendum ever held.

The voters essentially understood what the question was and said No by a 2-to-1 margin in full knowledge of the consequences. I voted Yes, but there you go. Sometimes you have to fight on. A 52% vote is worth throwing one's toys out of the pram over. But not a 68% vote.
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 21 April 2017 16:14
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Hank is voting LibDem
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:52

Reggie - the wiener republic

Wot? Full of pricks, was it?

Is that spelling to go with your humble cattle "cow"-towing?

Having said which, and in very small writing, you were right at 15.29. Probably the best.
Henry IV Part II
Posted - 21 April 2017 16:19
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I spotted that autocorrect before posting soto but rather liked it so let it ride...

We agree on something? Good grief
Hotblack Desiato
Posted - 21 April 2017 16:30
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"Hank is voting LibDem
Posted - 21 April 2017 13:42
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It is not ridiculous to entirely correctly and fairly call out the PM for telling lies"

Is it a lie? Have you considered the possibility that she might have changed her mind? I mean it is possible to honestly think at time T1 that X is the best idea, but then at time T2, based on the experience between T1 and T2, to think that not-X is the best idea.

The fact that poll numbers are favourable might be relevant, but it does not follow from the fact that poll numbers are favourable (and to be fair, they were favourable at time T1, just not as favourable) that that is the "real" reason for the change in view.
Henry IV Part II
Posted - 21 April 2017 16:33
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Desperate stuff HD
97 Sleeps To Christmas
Posted - 21 April 2017 16:33
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I was in the army y'know
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:37 Report as offensive Report Offensive
If UKIP has support from the electorate then those people should have some sort of representation. I don't see what is so awful about that. If they had had representation the referendum might have ended differently. At least people would have been able to see them in action. The few local councils that have had enough UKIP members to influence business have not made the same mistake twice.

--

This was always the problem for Brexiteers. As UKIP's popularity grew, Brexit's shrank. Their visibility was toxic, hence Carswell's attempts to neutralise it.
Sigh of the Oppressed
Posted - 21 April 2017 16:36
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Hank: so we can assume that Corbyn has been was lying about his sudden conversion to nuclear power just when there happened to be a pertinent by-election about to happen, nor about remaining in the EU? He hadn't just changed his mind?

Dear me, what a bad bunched these political types are, eh?
Hotblack Desiato
Posted - 21 April 2017 16:39
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"ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 15:53
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The difference is if you can get 40 % of the vote you basically get absolute free reign with no need for any compromise even though 60 % of the country is against you.

That is a very good argument for an elected second chamber with powers to check the Commons."

Just because 60% of the population did not vote for you, does not mean that 60% is against you. I might prefer the Liberal Democrats over all parties, and vote for them, but prefer a Tory government to a Labour government ,or even prefer a Tory government to a Lib-Lab-SNP coalition.

And actually the fact that 40% gets you "free reign" is a very good argument for not having an elected second chamber with powers to check the commons, because sometimes it is better to be able to act decisively than have to consult with everyone (or make concessions to avoid legislation being blocked etc.)

Arguably the whole problem with Obamacare is that Obama was not able to simply mandate what he actually wanted, which was single payer healthcare. So what you got was a bastard compromise, which no-one wants.

The correct decision in any given situation is not necessarily the one with which everyone agrees. Designing a political system involves a compromise between two irreconcilables:

1. The need, sometimes, to just fvcking do stuff without having to consult a load of wet blankets and ditherers.

2. The need to build consensus and checks and balances.

No system is perfect. Some are more consensual but get nothing done. Others are big on executive action but small on consensus.

Henry IV Part II
Posted - 21 April 2017 16:44
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Soto yes we certainly can assume that about corbyn - I have absolutely no doubt he wants out of the EU
ReggiePerrin is voting Lib Dem
Posted - 21 April 2017 16:47
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And actually the fact that 40% gets you "free reign" is a very good argument for not having an elected second chamber with powers to check the commons, because sometimes it is better to be able to act decisively than have to consult with everyone (or make concessions to avoid legislation being blocked etc.)

This argument is tenable, but only at the expense of the basic democratic principle that a minority should not rule over the majority. Having a second chamber provides a corrective as far as legislation is concerned, while allowing "strong government" on the part of the executive.

Obamacare isn't a good analogy in this context because the US constitution has some unusual quirks which none of us are advocating here.