Conduct of Remainers post-Referendum

On reflection, this was all pretty shoddy.  I include myself in this tbh

Attempting to use legal tricks and technicalities to overturn the result at every point. No intention to ever respect the result as they thought they would win at a canter. Everyone who voted Leave was thick, uneducated, didnt know what they were doing etc…

I wonder what things would look like if the majority of Remainers had simply accepted the result and worked to deliver a painless Brexit. Instead we had the total clusterfook of May’s Govt, Boris and all the shenanigans we have now. Remainers like Jolyon, Gina Miller and thon liberal Tories must shoulder a significant portion of the blame.

So people in favour of Brexit:

- Irish nationalists

- Russian troll accounts

brilliant, thanks for your input 

"worked to deliver a painless Brexit"

the problem there is "a painless brexit" is a unicorn on a stick. There's no such thing

‘Everyone who voted Leave was thick, uneducated, didnt know what they were doing etc…‘

trouble is, the people now moaning the most about brexit are the people who voted for brexit (farmers, fishermen, ulster unionists…). So clearly they didn’t know what they were voting for. Or they are thick.

Only a minority of remainers really wanted to overturn the vote. Leavers largely in fact didn’t know what they were doing. There was never any prospect of a “painless Brexit”.

Everyone who voted Leave was thick, uneducated, didnt know what they were doing etc…

 

Hindsight has really proved this wrong, eh.

Less painful then
 

Problem is that Brexit became all things to all people. Not even its supporters could decide what it should look like.

Remainers shouldn’t have forced the brexiteers (who held all levers of power) to want their cake and eat it, of course. 

I believe a lot of the people voting Brexit wanted to shake the political class, not fundamentally alter the nation’s place in the world. It was more of a “fook you” then a coherent set of policy positions.

The momentum for a second referendum only really started to build once it became apparent that those who campaigned for Brexit and were tasked with delivering it had no fooking clue what they were doing.

It’s panning out quite well, all things considered…
 

I wonder what percentage of people actually hold this view. Has to be under 15%

No, I’d say anyone with a sensible timeline for Brexit thinks it’s going fine…

…it’s never going to get above 50% ish as those voted remain are not a forgiving bunch and will always say it’s a disaster.

No, I’d say anyone with a sensible timeline for Brexit
 

Heh. When should we expect to enter the sunlit uplands?

Keen to hear more precise details about this sensible timeline and the reasons for the various milestones.  Should be good.

Remainers seeking to overturn the referendum were those who thought they knew better than those who voted for Brexit. 

They did. 

No red tape, and you can literally see the truck queues from space. You won first prize in the win-a-turd raffle. 

Unfortunately we have to live in a cramped flat with the winner of the win-a-turd prize and he insists on displaying it on the mantelpiece.

Thanks… …I could probably have written these responses on your behalf.
 

Yes, because they’re obvious responses to what you said. Do you have any answers?

I think you’re all being irrational and a bit hypocritical… …I haven’t noticed any difference to my life or standard of living since Brexit. 

Everyone on this thread missing the point spectacularly, as per.

the point isn’t that “brexit is good”

the point is that the people voted for brexit and within a democracy their representatives should deliver it. We can argue all day about the validity or appropriateness of referendums within our political system but none of that matters. Everyone agrees to it and agreed to deliver the outcome. 
 

if remainers (of which I am one) had actually accepted the outcome (which they promised to) a less bad deal could have been achieved.

as it is, they lied and obfuscated and condescended (that means taking down to someone) for 3 years and ended up with Boris and his shit sandwich deal.
 

The inevitability of a united ireland is a welcome side effect tbf 

if remainers (of which I am one) had actually accepted the outcome (which they promised to) a less bad deal could have been achieved.
 

How though? What deal should have been done that wasn’t done because remainers didn’t “accept the outcome”?

From the moment Brexit was voted for the UK was locked into an inevitable years-long wrangling process, with the only possible options on offer slightly different flavours of shit sandwich.

The majority of butthurt posters falling into the description given by OP.  Remainers would lose another referendum if it was held again tomorrow. 

Mays deal was better than Boris’ 

remainers could have watered it down a bit more in exchange for their votes 

Remainers would lose another referendum if it was held again tomorrow
 

This is demonstrably not true. Every single poll since 2016 has leave in 2nd place, with the gap widening as the debacle unfolds. 

Still not sure of labour positions on brexit other than sit back and let the tories argue.  They were invisible during the campaigns for either side.

if remainers (of which I am one) had actually accepted the outcome (which they promised to) a less bad deal could have been achieved’

amazing that brexiteers were in charge throughout and yet it’s still the remainers to blame for it all going to sh1t

Remainers would lose another referendum if it was held again tomorrow. 
 

Er not according to the available data.

I think what this thread shows is that those who voted remain are latching on to short term hiccups… …they don’t allow themselves to envisage a future where the U.K. succeeds.

 

By succeed are you alluding to ‘radical supply side reform’ as unintentionally disclosed by Marcus Fysh?

If so how do you think the Tories go about securing a mandate for that? Any Tory manifesto launch covering those sort of changes would be a challenge…

I had no idea Fluffy is a right wing nationalist. Is this a recent development?

I call it “Telegraph subscriber brain”

I think what this thread shows is that those who voted remain are latching on to short term hiccups 

Still waiting for that sensible Brexit timeline.

I had no idea Fluffy is a right wing nationalist’

i think Sinn Fein refer to themselves as far left nationalists. National Socialism, as it were

the point is that the people voted for brexit and within a democracy their representatives should deliver it. We can argue all day about the validity or appropriateness of referendums within our political system but none of that matters. Everyone agrees to it and agreed to deliver the outcome. 

This would be a valid point if what had been delivered resembled what was promised in any way.

If a remain referendum win is such a sure thing, why is Labour not demanding it? Why did Boris get such a majority on the Brexit ticket in 2019?  Opinion polls may call it marginally in favour of remain but the same thing would happen again in a referendum because the remain side have no idea how to campaign for a faceless technocracy status quo. 

If a remain referendum win is such a sure thing, why is Labour not demanding it?
 

Yes why not re-open all the Brexit wounds, sounds like a brilliant idea.

‘Why did Boris get such a majority on the Brexit ticket in 2019?‘

because in our FPTP system you only need c.40% of the vote and you get a big maj. 

sh1t system I agree 

It was a shit idea and it’s embarrassing that people are still trying to claim that it was good actually. Just pride and inability to admit error I guess

Surely reopening the wounds would be worth it if you thought that rejoining the single market would help us avoid being in the wilderness for the long term? Either the reality of Brexit can’t be that bad or you are not confident of a 2nd ref win. You can’t hold both positions. 

"I had no idea Fluffy is a right wing nationalist"

...she isn't but if you need that thought to float your boat then fair enough.

"I call it “Telegraph subscriber brain”

...this would be mildly amusing if I subscribed to the Telegraph.

You claimed that remainers would lose a second referendum tomorrow. The evidence doesn’t support that. Whether that means Labour should now campaign for a second referendum is a completely different question.

...this would be mildly amusing if I subscribed to the Telegraph.
 

Guessing it just expired or some other technicality

As above - if the remain vote is split between 3/4 parties (which it is) then it’s not a sensible election strategy. Doesn’t mean they wouldn’t win a 2nd referendum, particularly when Rishi’s brexit tax kicks in 

"It was a shit idea and it’s embarrassing that people are still trying to claim that it was good actually. Just pride and inability to admit error I guess"

...I didn't say it was a good idea. I'm saying it's not turning out too bad... ...it's unlikely that anyone posting on this board has suffered in the slightest because of Brexit.

But I would like to read specific examples of how life has degraded for you as I'm always willing to take on board information...

I didn't say it was a good idea.
 

I didn’t say you did. You haven’t yet given us the sensible Brexit timeline.

The problem is, as stated in the OP, if you brand everyone who voted for Brexit as “thick, uneducated, didnt know what they were doing etc…” (as has been repeated throughout this thread), you can hardly expect them to go, “oh yes, I’ve seen the light now, I am thick and uneducated”. You’re more likely to entrench their views and the divisions in society.

If you could say, “I recognise there may have been limited benefits to Brexit, E.g. no VAT on sanitary products, not getting involved in the EU shambles of vaccine procurement etc. But can you see that the issues with customs, inflation due to higher tariffs, NI etc are more significant than any benefits? I understand you think in the long term it will be beneficial but the indications are that it will have the opposite effect which is my belief. Do you think, in hindsight, it might have been better to stay in?” Then you might convince more to recognise your point.

I am very bored with the puerile level of debate between Brexit/remain, left/right and basically any issue nowadays where it descends into abuse.

That’s why I read (and enjoyed) the HP thread on trans issues as, for the most part, it didn’t but was well-argued on both sides.

If a remain referendum win is such a sure thing, why is Labour not demanding it? 

Has the fact that we have already left and rejoining is not an option currently available to us escaped your notice?

you haven't set out how Brexit has affected you adversely.
 

Why should I? I never said it has. You on the other hand did say that there’s a sensible timeline that we should be judging Brexit by. What is it?

What are you basing your judgement on?

Years of absorbing all things related to Brexit before and after Brexit...

OK, the UK has had a terrible two years economically with the combination of Brexit and vuvu. But still, on latest GDP figures, (22 Dec 2021) it is the fifth richest economy behind only Germany in the EU and two ahead of France. 
https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/

GDP fell hugely in comparison to the Eurozone (1.5% compared to only 0.3% overall for the EU which must be, in part at least, due to Brexit. Yet we’re still 5th?

Added to that, we are predicted (because we fell so far) to grow faster and further than anyone else.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/

I’m not sure we’re all going to hell in a hand basket yet.

Obviously, if we hadn’t left the EU, it might be even better but we’ll never know. I’m just saying (as my thread yesterday said) we’d all do well to cheer the fook up!

Just contrasting your “sunlit uplands” idea above - another high bar.

It’s done, we’re doing OK economically (according to the figures I posted above) and predicted to do better this year. Let’s wait and see what happens.

We have to wait and see what happens. But there is no reason to expect any economic benefit of Brexit as compared to staying in the EU. It was a stupid policy voted for largely by people who didn't really understand what they were doing. A large minority of them now wish they hadn't.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/25/one-year-on-most-voters-say-brexit-has-gone-badly

26% of Leave supporters said it had gone worse than they expected, while 16% of those who voted for Brexit said they had expected it to go badly and had been proved right.

Massive heh @ those 16% by the way. "Yes I knew it was going to go wrong and I voted for it anyway. Why? fook you, that's why"

I still struggle to look at Brexit rationally.

I’m still angry at (1) the loss (2) the underestimating of the leave campaign (3) the lies told by vote leave (4) the clear lack of vision in the “winning team” as to what would happen next. 

There is a great ability in those who voted Brexit to give the 10 word sound bite re how happy they now are but there’s a complete inability to give a rational next 10 words (and onwards) as to how things are or will be better.

The truth is that they have no idea. Most of them don’t know what they voted for beyond an abstract idea of Rule Britannia. None of them are prepared to make any concessions that perhaps it’s not going as well as the Leave Campaign overstated.

Covid has largely masked Brexit as an issue. Without it it would be viewed as an unmitigated disaster.

But yeah, Remainers huh? 

 

 

 

If I understand them correctly, many Brexit voters weren’t thinking purely of the economy. Bit like the Scots Nats, some of them feel so strongly about their national identity being suppressed by another organisation (rightly or wrongly) they’d rather suffer financially and break away than perform better economically under the arrangement they feel is suppressing them.

Out of interest to those who think people who voted Brexit are “thick, uneducated and didn’t know what they were doing”, do you think independence voters in Scotland are the same?

No I'm sure a lot of them weren't thinking purely of the economy, but did they really expect it to make the nation poorer? I don't really believe that if that had been widely understood that it would have made it over the line. Could be wrong

Jim, do you see how it’s the fbpe remainers who won’t look ahead and don’t want the country to prosper?   Of course it will be completely impossible to untangle the economic effects of Covid from brexit.  I see the G7 is forecasting the uk will have the fastest growth for the next couple of years. 

‘Please don't post the obvious and ask for my workings... ...it's a judgment‘

so more of the mindless optimism that has served us so well thus far…