This mask debate

Why do people think masks don’t help? 

Please don’t say because numbers are increasing even with mask wearage. There is no control to compare against. Also, masks have to be worn properly, not on the chin or forehead.

When you sneeze, do you cover your mouth or shower your spit/snot with relish on everyone around?

The control was England. Scotland and Wales, which retained the muzzles, had just as much if not more COVID.

This is a stupid analogy. You use a tissue for your snot when you have a cold so you don't have snot all over your hands, face and clothes. Did you wear a mask everywhere when you had a cold before 2020? 

There are three camps really.

The first listens to and understands the science 

The second just does what they are told 

The third think it's a big mask/SAGE/bill gates conspiracy to control us.

Which "the science" are you listening to? 
 

the African Union's scientific officers who say the measures being taken are political not based in science? Or some different "the science"?

 

masks do work

the masks 99.99999 % of the public use and wear do not

hth

And its 2020 all over again. Only now we know masks work, and teamsane come across as more dribbling

Linds Apparently can't understand the word understand.

Is just a category of people Linds though, so you must fall into another category.

The system works.

Sure but you think you're in a category of "understanding the science"

so which "the science" is that?

Heart bypasses work. Only a selfish moron wouldn't have one. How dare you deny the science. 

Cloth face coverings absolutely don't do a thing and make it difficult to breathe and uncomfortable to sit in a normally neutral environment.

They impede communication and instil a sense of fear in the places they are used 

And they will be used to gauge appetite for further restrictions

Why is it they are required in shops, but not restaurants or pubs, where is the science in that? Or does rona not transmit in pubs or shops?

Also SAGE have leaked a document where they said to get hold of the new virus and mitigate its spread, WFH should be mandatory. Marr asked Saj " So you just ignored their advice" Yes.

Brilliant

Masks seem to give me a sore throat. I always feel crap after I've been to work which is the only place I wear one.

it’s not a debate

it’s a load of idiots standing shouting a load of bull crap while everyone with a brain points and laughs at them for not thinking putting a barrier in front of your face-holes reduces the chances of getting or spreading a virus that almost exclusively spreads by respiratory means.

The virus will continue to mutate, forever.  It’s not going away.  The question is what measures are people prepared to carry on forever.  I’m vaccinated and boosted.  I’ll continue to take whatever boosters they ask.  I’m not wearing masks for my whole life.  If we don’t stop now, we never will.

Yep exactly Occam's Taser. If restrictions can be slapped back on us with no notice days after a new possibly-quite-serious-but-we're-not-sure-yet-variant is identified, when does it end? The virus is endemic and will mutate forever more. We can't really get more vaccinated than we are now, without strapping Clergs down and jabbing her (that got sexual somehow). If we don't stop accepting new restrictions now, we never will. Or will the people here give a reasoned response when they would propose we stop bringing back restrictions? After everyone has been boosted 8 times?

Agree entirely with Canadian and OT. This is just govt taking the minimum steps it thinks it can get away with in order to placate the likes of  Davos, chill and groupies. Instead of saying “we’ve done all that can reasonably and proportionately be done - we all just have to get on with life”. Unfortunately (and as Clergs has presciently warned throughout) the genie is well and truly out of the bottle and it will take several iterations (at least) of “Variant! Everyone panic!” before people like chill get bored. If they ever do. 

lindaradlett28 Nov 21 11:11

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This is a stupid analogy. You use a tissue for your snot when you have a cold so you don't have snot all over your hands, face and clothes. Did you wear a mask everywhere when you had a cold before 2020? 
 

The analogy isn’t stupid. Can’t say the same about your comprehension of the original post, however.

This is just govt taking the minimum steps it thinks it can get away with in order to placate the likes of Davos, chill and groupies.

point of information: i have no groupies (I can’t speak for davos)

ebitda28 Nov 21 12:09

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Why is it they are required in shops, but not restaurants or pubs, where is the science in that? Or does rona not transmit in pubs or shops?

 

Literally no one thinks that covid doesn’t spread in pubs or shops. But we don’t live in a binary world. “All or nothing” doesn't work in ours because we have to balance risk of one thing against another.

it will take several iterations (at least) of “Variant! Everyone panic!” before people like chill get bored. If they ever do. 

how do i live rent free in so many posters heads?

i haven’t even posted that much on the covid threads recently, i’ve been sticking to the relative sensiblity of the trans threads (which trust me is saying something)

Occam's Taser28 Nov 21 12:32

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The virus will continue to mutate, forever.  It’s not going away.  The question is what measures are people prepared to carry on forever.  I’m vaccinated and boosted.  I’ll continue to take whatever boosters they ask.  I’m not wearing masks for my whole life.  If we don’t stop now, we never will.
 

I completely understand your point. I don’t think anyone wants to wear masks forever. Most of us may at some point say fook it I don’t care that the masks work, I’ll take my chances. 
 

But to say that masks don’t work is simply not true.

But to say that masks don’t work is simply not true.

🙌🙌🙌

Masks don't really work because they are not put on in the clinically correct way, they are touched frequently, they are not taken off in the clinically correct way and they are not worn at home... ...combine that with the fact that they are reused to the point where a fungal growth in the throat is a more serious risk of death to the wearer than Covid...

...but, all of that isn't the point. The point is that masks have become the litmus test that identifies those who are petrified of dying and who employ the 'I'm doing it for the greater good of society' argument to disguise their fear. 

Of course they don't work don't be preposterous. Look at every country in the world. Not even a correlative relationship. Germany has had forced high grade masks since January. Also has a giant, almost vertical line up in cases.

People who think the working of masks is binary are absolutely fúcking dribbling morons. 

  • Some masks are better than other masks
  • A crap mask is better than no mask. 
  • Masks everywhere public is better than masks nowhere public 
  • If you think you're clever by saying "ooooh, masks in shops but what about theatres and pubs?!?!!" you're an idiot. Unredeemable. 
  • People wearing masks in 50% of public settings is better than in zero% of public settings. 
  • If you think this is some sort of dastardly control by the gumm'munt, you're a loon. What do they want from this? 

 

End of. 

There are German roffers who will know more but didn’t Germany relax mask restrictions some time back?

Oh, and forgot - deciding that "ohh - look at country/region X v country/region Y" to try and make some sort of commentary on mask efficacy is absolutely rubbish.

You have no clue on usages of masks across those countries/regions and what the counterfactual is for those countries/regions. 

A shitty face covering catching the heaviest woft of viral load is better than nothing at all. 

JM why would we go back to wearing masks now though? Because a new variant was identified? Even if your hypothesis is true (I don't think it is) England has given everyone the vaccines that wants it and cases, hospitalizations and deaths from covid have not plunged the country into the dark ages. If masks come back every time a new variant is found, we are effectively saying they will never go away.

This is problematic for me because I do not want to go about wearing a mask the rest of my life when I do not believe they prevent me from catching covid or giving someone else Covid, nor do I think life is about protecting myself and others from Covid. It is about seeing faces of my friends family and community. Their entire face. Covid is not new anymore. These emergency mandatory acts must end.

"There are German roffers who will know more but didn’t Germany relax mask restrictions some time back?"

If by relax you mean require N95/KN95 masks (not face coverings) in public indoor spaces since Jan 2021, then yes?

Image

Fluffy, most people are capable of a modicum of common sense. So they usually know how to wear a mask properly and that they have to be washed. The ones who wear masks because they feel forced into it but actually don’t believe they help are the ones who don’t wear them correctly. And then rant against them on the internet.

Exhibit One = Jelly... ...absolutely petrified of dying.

Grow a pair for f*cks sake...

Oh, and until you make make wearing compulsory in the home you have basically designed a perpetually leaking viral sieve.

Again, I will defer to someone who actually lives in Germany but I understand masks of any sort were no longer required from October in some areas, combined with a lifting of cap on number of people at events.

Masks are 0% effective in stopping the spread of COVID. 

 

 

Hobbes dahlink... ...that's bollocks. Most people do not use disposable masks in the clinically prescribed manner. Any mask other than a disposable one is a petri dish of new variants.

But you are free to believe whatever you wish.

Fluffy, is your stance that masks don’t work per your 23:11 or that they do per your 23:28?

Fluffy - I know the rof game and we're all choc full of aggressive bravado. I don't give a shit whether i get it.  I'm double, soon to be triple, vaxed. I do care about a close family member in the middle of chemo so am being careful. The fact that so many of you can only see one degree of separation and have zero consideration for the next link in the chain is shitty. But there are a lot of shits about. Sleep well. 

Oh, and masks have only ever been about not inadvertently spreading. The lens of "it's a petri dish" is telling.

Caring about your immediate environment over the whole world doesn't make you the good guy, jelly.

And masks have only ever been about Showcasing Virtue.

Reminding Others To Take Care.

fook care and fook the fearful (fear by proxy counts).

Up until last week, no masks here, it's been non stop chinning.
You need masks in supermarkets and shops, but not in the workplace.

TCV, are you saying that no masks until last week but since then masks required in supermarkets and shops only?

I think the important thing about masks in public places, is it gives the vulnerable some degree of protection. People have to buy food and necessary items, and masks give them some protection.

Sorry. Getting late. No masks in pubs and restaurants if vaccinated.  

But masks in shops etc. 

But rules have changed due to rising cases. Often need vaccinated plus (plus clear test)

Thank you for clarifying, TCV.

Canadian - I hope that goes some way towards explaining what’s going on in Germany?

I will say it was very exciting to be out in the pub without a mask.
I immediately got covid.

Jelly... ...I'm sorry to hear about your close family member undergoing chemo.

I'm not a very socially minded individual so you have that right...

Hobbes... ...'masks' i.e. the current policy of making people wear masks in restricted scenarios doesn't work and can never work because (1) they are not worn correctly and (2) they are not worn everywhere including the home.

Does wearing a manky old mask in the incorrect manner reduce transmission? Perhaps, but does this increase the risk of transmission in other ways because of a 'feeling of security' and the reduction of social distancing... ...yep that's also likely.

As Jelly says, it isn't binary and that includes the benefits of mask wearing.

 

Corona Vax... ...good to see you're not dead.

Why did you go into a space where masks are not worn? That's a very cavalier attitude...

I've been chinning all over this year. London, Greece, Italy, Luxembourg. Testing out my vaccine.
It's kept me alive so far.

I think we’re actually agreeing, Fluffy. You’re not saying masks don’t work, period. And I’m not saying wearing a mask will stop covid dead in it’s tracks.

“When you sneeze, do you cover your mouth or shower your spit/snot with relish on everyone around?”

Is that what it’s called now?

I am enjoying a bunch of bed wetting team saners making wrong assumptions as usual.

You lot really are thick as mince.

"Canadian - I hope that goes some way towards explaining what’s going on in Germany?"

What on earth are you talking about? No, it doesn't go some way to explaining what's going on in Germany. What's going on in Germany is a massive massive spike in Covid in the last month, despite much stricter mask mandates (since Jan 2021) and vaccine passport requirements than the UK has had ever seeing as they never came to England. 

What conclusion are you trying to make?

Haven't read most of this but two simple points.

Did you wear a mask everywhere when you had a cold before 2020? No but I looked at people wearing them and could understand why they did and thought about it myself.

Secondly masks work for what economists like to call signalling. They are an obvious physical reminder of the need to take extra precautions. The mask itself may or may not make a difference but it does remind people to adjust their behaviour.

Secondly masks work for what economists like to call signalling. They are an obvious physical reminder of the need to take extra precautions. The mask itself may or may not make a difference but it does remind people to adjust their behaviour.

That's interesting.  Do you have any peer-reviewed studies which demonstrate this to be true?  Or demonstrate that a potential counter-effect is that proximity (a key transmission factor) actually increases because people (falsely) feel safer, despite mainly wearing totally ineffective coverings?

No but that's part of the government thinking courtesy of their behavioural gurus.

I can definitely believe that a medical-grade mask warn properly helps a lot. I don't believe a piece of cloth you bought on Etsy that has been scrunched up, in and out of your pocket for 3 months and never washed does anything. 

OT - Sails is surely right that (at least in govt circles), the “signalling” value of masks is what is really valued. We could have a lively debate among posters on this board about what is actually being signalled by voluntary mask-wearing - and people’s attitudes to that question will be driven by their assessment of whether the medical efficacy of mask wearing makes it in any way a proportionate or logical response given risk levels. On that point I’m strongly in agreement with you. 

AN - whether something is valued by this rancid incompetent Government isn't really that high on my bovvered list.  

a simple experiment

it's cold outside.
Breathe - observe where your breath vapour goes.
Put a mask on, breathe - observe where your breath vapour goes.

"Did you wear a mask everywhere when you had a cold before 2020? No but I looked at people wearing them and could understand why they did and thought about it myself."

Definitely think anyone who goes out in public while sneezing/coughing/fever/nasty symptoms of cold, flu, covid should wear a mask! Because I am a germophobe. Or better yet, STAY THE HELL HOME.

Being forced to wear a "face covering" when you have no symptoms is what I'm bovvered about, and people who think that if you don't wear a face covering (despite not having any symptoms) are evil selfish monsters since July of 2020 where before they would just be normal people. Covid isn't the bubonic plague.

OT - I’m agreeing with you! The problem is that what matters to the gov’t matters to everyone else because they get to decide. Looking on the bright side, at least in England they have taken the “least we can get away with while keeping the shriekers onside” approach. Watch Sturgeon go the full Monty. 

Homework
Exercise 1: Take a vape. Note the size of exhaled vape particles (50nm). Take a puff. Put on mask. Blow it out. Observe results. Note exhaled coronavirus-19 particle size (<5 μm).

Exercise 2: Consider being symptomatic enough so as to produce large droplets with viral load. Your body expels virus. How does a mask effect this process? Is viral load redirected into your eyes? Should those who are symptomatic enough to produce large droplets be out in public? Is it responsible to promote masks as safe?

i don't care if they work or not...the whole debate is fking boring. I'd just rather not wear a mask 

Ron.

Covid is transmitted as droplets which are usually larger in size than the virus particle. These are caught by the mask.

That covers both your exercises.

"Did you wear a mask everywhere when you had a cold before 2020? "

No but its definitely a good idea. They do it elsewhere in the world & I've not had a cold since the covid restriction were introduced so they must be good for something.

No Rodgers, masks do nothing as we are repeatedly told. So your experience is a lie.

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