They'd need a full-scale agreement pre-election to stand candidates down in seats where the other party was more likely to win. Then (maybe) they could entertain discussions of power-sharing.
CC that would still get them nothing close to a majority, I am not even sure it would win them more seats at all, it may just let reform pick up a handful of seats is the most extreme brexity areas.
The only thing that might work (a bit) is if Reform could be bought off by its leadership being brought into the Tories as MP's/Lords and promised (shadow) ministerial positions in return for standing down Reform completely. I don't think Tice will do it though. Not least because it will be a struggle to get the 5 or 6 seats they would want in safe enough constituencies that they might actually win as Tories.
Tice & Co genuinely think they can make 'Nige' PM at the GE after this one by doing a reverse takeover of the Tories after the election or even just replacing the Tories. They think this because they are fvcking mad.
Either that or not vote. They haven’t got a hope in my area (solid Tory but could go Lab I guess). While I’ve listened to what you and Guy have said about Lab (and hope you’re right) but I just can’t get behind their woke rhetoric and worry that SKS won’t be able to keep down the far left.
Reform are actual lunatics and scumbags though Crypto. I mean they really are. You must see that? Just look at some of the stuff their candidates are spouting.
While I’ve listened to what you and Guy have said about Lab (and hope you’re right) but I just can’t get behind their woke rhetoric and worry that SKS won’t be able to keep down the far left
So you agree with Labour's plans, broadly speaking, but don't like "woke rhetoric" (whatever that is) and Jeremy Corbyn (no-one does) so would rather vote Reform. I don't follow the logic (if there is any).
Crypto - Reform are a far right party many of whom are criminal thugs - they have to be told not to tweet when drunk because of the racist stuff they spout - surely you cannot be contemplating voting for them? How could you possibly think the country would be a decent place with them in charge?
While I’ve listened to what you and Guy have said about Lab (and hope you’re right) but I just can’t get behind their woke rhetoric and worry that SKS won’t be able to keep down the far left
So you agree with Labour's plans, broadly speaking, but don't like "woke rhetoric" (whatever that is) and Jeremy Corbyn (no-one does) so would rather vote Reform. I don't follow the logic (if there is any).
you're wasting your time Kimmy, you can't reason with meatshields
Cryto is pretending to worry about "woke" while supporting the party that has presided over everything he hates and which has the only trans MP in parliament sitting on its benches
Sure, Labour are going to win, barring a miracle for Rishi but I don’t get all this triumphalism.
-Tories are not going to drop below 150 seats or so
-Lib Dems are not going to beat their high under Nick Clegg, and likely won’t even come close (around 60 seats I think)
-Labour will probably take back some of their traditional Scottish seats from the SNP which wiped them out at the last GE, but is now in chaos, and boost their majority that way.
-Reform might pick up a few seats in the 0-5 range but not guaranteed.
The absolute best case for Starmer is a Blair style majority but that was driven by a country that actually positively wanted Blair, and wasn’t voting for “anyone but Tory” like now - Starmer inspires no one, so I am sceptical he will get to that level. It’s possible, but it’s not my base case.
As a side note - I did not know (until I read the FT last weekend) that Reform is not an unincorporated association like most political parties - it is a limited company which is majority owned by Farage, with some minority shares for Tice and a few others.
Stru, I think you are probably right, but I have read many articles that suggest even the worse predictions for Tory seats may be optimistic because of tactical voting. It is hard to overestimate the disdain most of the country hold for the current batch of Tories and from my own acquaintences I now many many people who will vote whoever has the best chance of unseating their incumbent Tory MP. I certainly will. On this basis, combined with current overall polling, the Tories really could be almost wiped out. On balance however I think there will be a swing back to the Tories on election day. There always is. Dont know why.
-Tories are not going to drop below 150 seats or so
The absolute best case for Starmer is a Blair style majority but that was driven by a country that actually positively wanted Blair, and wasn’t voting for “anyone but Tory” like now - Starmer inspires no one, so I am sceptical he will get to that level. It’s possible, but it’s not my base case.
I recall when the Tories were predicted a 100 seat majority in 2016 (granted not by Stru)
I'm not sure Blair was "wanted" well in advance of the election - I dimly recall labour being coy (I was quite young) and I think this operation is staying relatively quite until everyone hardens their position on an election manifesto
I will hazzard a guess that that is when we'll see Starmer kissing babies and chugging pints and beating up russians, just in time to wrong foot all the prepared tory meatshield lines
of course we might also see rishi doing some sky diving, snorting vodka off a kate wales' belly and single handedly citizen's arresting fly tippers to wrong foot the labour meatshield lines, particularly that he's an out of touch teetoaller who will ban beer just like he banned cigs if re elected.
well, it probably goes against your conservative instincts but to get that you probably want to move to bulgaria or czech rep then
Bulgaria has lowest personal and corp tax rates in the EU, 10% or something like that
Czech rep is not far behind, 15% flat rate but you can reduce with entrepreneurs relief to effective rate of 8%? 6%? if you push it.
leichtenstein is a good shout but they only let something like 100 people in year and they're in a customs unions with switzerland whcih you boys don't really like either
How does that work, Guy? Remember Labour’s enthusiasm for experts and lockdowns. And the ranks of muzzled Labour MPs while the Tories were free (of course SKS probably had one with an aperture for beer bottles).
Feel free to ignore Crypto, but it's a personal choice based on your values. There's a little bit of focus on how you are immediately affected personally but maybe also consider the affect on your community and long term future.
It's not for anyone to tell you how to vote in that regard and we may not align on values. But dishonesty is a dealbreaker for me and I can't vote for the current Tory party on that basis alone. I may vote for them in the future but not until they return to traditional conservatism and that probably requires a near complete refresh. I'm not sure Reform represent that refresh, so I'm left with the normal gang or spoiling.
on the other hand Quips (though you make a good point) there is nothing wrong with publicly shaming people who think that 14 of this shambles has been good for the UK and that what we need is 5 more years and presumably at least 3 more unelected PMs offering the same
Reform has just split the boomer vote that used to all go to Tories among the over 50s. Also unfortunately for our anti-woke saviours most people are moderate socially aware centrists, so will not vote for a bunch of incompetent closet racists selling off ERG meat no matter how much lipstick you put on the fascist pig.
Kimmy -- but Labour was enthusiastic about the lockdowns - they not only supported everything Boris did, they were constantly calling for more restrictions and more closures and more coercive measures - that's just a fact, as is the fact they voted for all the restrictions (which is why Boris was able to pass several votes despite rebellion in his own party).
If you want to somehow absolve them of responsibility for the lockdowns, restrictions and the damage that caused, you're going to have to explain why they voted enthusiastically for them, while calling for more and tighter restrictions.
As for teachers and schools - teachers are overwhelmingly left wing - again that's just common knowledge, but if you want some numbers - see this survey from the TES (note, this is from 2019 before the election that Boris won - there is no doubt it will be skewed even more towards Labour now):
I would describe teachers as people with a higher than average social conscience/awareness and a desire to help and educate others (obviously with regard to the latter). If those are qualities that anyone fears their kids being exposed to then I genuinely feel sorry for their kids.
In all honesty Kimmy, it tells me that you agree with their political views, which is why you describe it in those words.
The whole point is that Crypto doesnt agree with those views (you can disagree of course, but he’s entitled to his views) and wants his kids to grow up with his values, not the ones they get from teachers.
PS - My wife grew up in a council estate in Sunderland and was a state school teacher in East London for many years - in my experience, there are a few like you describe for whom the kids are a vocation - a calling, but for the most part, it’s a job to most of them like any other
Some teachers teach as their vocation, but also quite a lot are simply materially unambitious and its an easy job to get after university. What it lacks in salary it makes up for by offering opportunities to work in most areas of the country, job security, a good pension and amazing holidays. Lets be honest about this.
this is probably true, despite teaching being probably the most conservative thing you can do, since teachers never get exposed to the real world and have only vague observations to go off
however
the idea that kids are indoctrinated to be socialist is down to schools is completely retarded conservative thinking
kinds lean left because they are subject to illogical and autoractic power wielded by power mad arse holes (I would imagine the 15% quoted is skewed heavily towards senior management at schools) until they are about 25 (well, until they were 25, you probably don't get any real freedom until you're 40 these days)
the idea that it is a physics teacher stopping the lesson about calculating speed and not the stagnant wages, half the freedoms their parents enjoyed ripped up, pensions flushed down the drain, homeownership reserved for forrin luxury flat buyers a ton of debt for the degree that their job requires and an ever increasing tax burden to fund tory vanity projects that is pushing people left probably explains why the country has gotten so shitty and backwards in the last 10 years
but Labour was enthusiastic about the lockdowns - they not only supported everything Boris did, they were constantly calling for more restrictions and more closures and more coercive measures - that's just a fact, as is the fact they voted for all the restrictions (which is why Boris was able to pass several votes despite rebellion in his own party).
this is absolutely fair point - ditto with tozzas voting for the Iraq war etc
lockdowns were a response to a once in a century extreme event. You may have considered them unnecessary, and perhaps in hindsight they did more harm than good, we will probably never really know, but they were the perceived wisdom at the time and most people and most mainstream politicians on all sides supported them. It is bonkers to now base your voting decision on having been anti-lockdown.
stru - I didn't say teaching was a vocation and am well aware of the benefits of it as a job, as well as the nightmare that it can be these days. And I don't know the political views of the vast majority of teachers.
My point is that any values kids would get from their teachers are probably going to be benign. If someone is so concerned about their kids being exposed to harmful political rhetoric at school that they vote Reform (I mean, wtf?) then I really do feel sorry for the kids.
Of course any parent with strong views is going to want their kids to follow suit.
I'm not saying Crypto (or anyone else) isn't entitled to their views, but if people post them on here then it's for others to respond, right?
My point is that any values kids would get from their teachers are probably going to be benign. If someone is so concerned about their kids being exposed to harmful political rhetoric at school that they vote Reform (I mean, wtf?) then I really do feel sorry for the kids.
I kind of suspect what's happening here is that private schools spend a huge chunk of time force feeding kids who have been abandoned in what amounts to an expensive borstal frothing rightwing nonsense (it certaintly explains the last couple of governments)
so they assume state schools must be doing the same when all their doing is telling 5 year olds to share the crayons and trying to get teenagers to give a fcuk about french vowels
you want to worry about left wing indoctrination, it's Google, Facebook and social media spreading american nonsense doing the heavy lifting
Some of these State schools sound horrendous. Strict to the point of tyranny, and over petty things too like what colour of pencil-case you carry. That Birbalsingh character is bordering on fascist.
Kimmy - you are making my point for me. The reason you are saying "the values kids get from most teachers will be benign" is because you agree with those values.
Would you say the same about sending your kids to an extreme Islamic faith school? Is that because the teachers there are somehow less dedicated/sincere/bad people? Of course not - it's because you don't agree with the values being imparted there and don't want your kids to be imbued with those values.
Although not so extreme, Crypto's views on state schools are directionally similar - they teach values he doesn't like (it's hard for you to see this, because you agree with those values).
Guy - I know you believe that about lockdowns - it's the general attitude most people have taken ("it was unprecedented..couldn't have known better..did our best at the time..some damage happened..oh well, it's behind us now") - but it's simply not factually true (not accusing you of lying).
Lockdowns and harsh restrictions were never planned for pandemics and always considered counterproductive - all the scientific literature, government scenario planning and so forth for the 20 years before COVID was based around a Sweden-style approach.
That is the approach most of the world started with too (including the UK), in January/Feb 2020 (when it started to become clear something big was happening).
Then the Chinese went nuts locking down in Wuhan, then Northern Italy panicked and ordered a regional lockdown and then the panic spread everywhere in the March 10-20 period (escalated by the flawed Imperial report etc) and everyone followed locking down like dominoes, and Boris flip flopped his original decision to go the Sweden route and locked down a week later. And everything was then back-rationalized later to justify decisions that had already been made in panic.
We did know better at the time - we just got panicked (as a society) into some extreme measures and then were forced to justify it for two years until the restrictions collapsed.
And there were plenty of mainstream people arguing against it and saying it was a mistake (especially after the first lockdown where I can at least understand the panic to some extent) - they were just overruled and overwhelmed through panic and fearmongering - everyone from Jonathan Sumption to 50-60 Tory MPs, to Nobel Prize winner in medicine and Stanford professor John Ioannidis and more.
(not to mention the entire country of Sweden which inconveniently for the pro-lockdown people did not see hordes of people dying on the streets and an overwhelmed healthcare system)
PS - I ranted enough about this in 2020/21 so I will stop now, but just to add - although not as widely reported, Japan also did not have a lockdown and only closed schools for 1 month (in March 2020) - basically other than closing the borders and a non-binding request to wear masks, they did nothing, and nothing much happened there either.
Stru, my point is that if you are going to refuse to vote for people who supported lockdown you are never going to find a mainstream party to support again. Sometimes you just find yourself against mainstream opinion, perhaps wrongly, perhaps rightly, but at some point when this is no longer an active issue you just have to let it go.
I was massively against the Iraq war, and am satisfied in hindsight that I was right and it was a huge mistake, but that does mean I refuse ever to vote for Labour or the Tories ever again.
1
8
not in a FPTP - that 12% translates to 0 seats
while SNP 3% is what? 10?
2
5
Keir Starmer would have to punch the King to not get a majority
2
8
and even then a lot of people are republicans these days
3
4
no you see, you need seats in parliament to power share
0
6
Will the tozzas become the biggest proponents of PR?
0
5
If sir Keir punched the king , people would say it’s just a policy development
0
7
ok maybe if he released an autotune tiktok dance entitled Fck Da NHS
1
5
Yes, they can share absolutely zero power between them. They can divvy up the zero power in any way they see fit.
0
7
Reform will win 0 seats so not sure how that is going to work Warlord. Are you foreign?
0
4
They'd need a full-scale agreement pre-election to stand candidates down in seats where the other party was more likely to win. Then (maybe) they could entertain discussions of power-sharing.
0
4
People mocking the op here will feel very silly when reform and the Tories have over 100 seats!! (Breakdown: Tories c.100, reform 0)
0
2
CC that would still get them nothing close to a majority, I am not even sure it would win them more seats at all, it may just let reform pick up a handful of seats is the most extreme brexity areas.
1
3
TBH I don't think even Lee Anderson will keep his seat after switching to Reform.
I overheard a conversation about it and thought I would test the sanity of it and I assured that it is as likely as I initially thought.
Thanks for the sarcasm too 😂
0
4
At least own your crap warlord, don’t try to claim it was someone else
0
6
General Election Prediction (electoralcalculus.co.uk)
Tories 90, Reform 0 is the central prediction.
Interestingly Gorgeous George predicted to keep his seat, despite the low turnout for his by election.
1
8
The only thing that might work (a bit) is if Reform could be bought off by its leadership being brought into the Tories as MP's/Lords and promised (shadow) ministerial positions in return for standing down Reform completely. I don't think Tice will do it though. Not least because it will be a struggle to get the 5 or 6 seats they would want in safe enough constituencies that they might actually win as Tories.
Tice & Co genuinely think they can make 'Nige' PM at the GE after this one by doing a reverse takeover of the Tories after the election or even just replacing the Tories. They think this because they are fvcking mad.
0
3
To be clear when I say work (a bit) I mean might result in the Tories getting something in the region of 130 seats.
0
6
I’m going to be voting reform. Why would they do a deal with the discredited Tory party? Reform is the future.
0
3
You can't be serious Crypto surely?
1
6
Either that or not vote. They haven’t got a hope in my area (solid Tory but could go Lab I guess). While I’ve listened to what you and Guy have said about Lab (and hope you’re right) but I just can’t get behind their woke rhetoric and worry that SKS won’t be able to keep down the far left.
3
6
Hang on cryppers, I thought that labour were finished after grant shapps’ now iconic ‘curtains’ comment?
Is that no longer the case?
0
5
It would appear not to have been as effective as a first imagined.
0
4
Reform are actual lunatics and scumbags though Crypto. I mean they really are. You must see that? Just look at some of the stuff their candidates are spouting.
0
6
An electoral pact would help them, probably not enough, but Reform would never agree to it.
Also, the British public, for some unfathomable reason, seem to dislike electoral pacts. Only the Lib-SDP Alliance has ever worked.
1
7
The reform MP, recently:
0
6
So you agree with Labour's plans, broadly speaking, but don't like "woke rhetoric" (whatever that is) and Jeremy Corbyn (no-one does) so would rather vote Reform. I don't follow the logic (if there is any).
0
6
Crypto - Reform are a far right party many of whom are criminal thugs - they have to be told not to tweet when drunk because of the racist stuff they spout - surely you cannot be contemplating voting for them? How could you possibly think the country would be a decent place with them in charge?
0
4
Kimmy01 May 24 09:43
So you agree with Labour's plans, broadly speaking, but don't like "woke rhetoric" (whatever that is) and Jeremy Corbyn (no-one does) so would rather vote Reform. I don't follow the logic (if there is any).
________________________________________________________________________
you're wasting your time Kimmy, you can't reason with meatshields
Cryto is pretending to worry about "woke" while supporting the party that has presided over everything he hates and which has the only trans MP in parliament sitting on its benches
you can't help someone like that
0
5
Why is Anderson saluting with the wrong arm?
0
5
Sure, Labour are going to win, barring a miracle for Rishi but I don’t get all this triumphalism.
-Tories are not going to drop below 150 seats or so
-Lib Dems are not going to beat their high under Nick Clegg, and likely won’t even come close (around 60 seats I think)
-Labour will probably take back some of their traditional Scottish seats from the SNP which wiped them out at the last GE, but is now in chaos, and boost their majority that way.
-Reform might pick up a few seats in the 0-5 range but not guaranteed.
The absolute best case for Starmer is a Blair style majority but that was driven by a country that actually positively wanted Blair, and wasn’t voting for “anyone but Tory” like now - Starmer inspires no one, so I am sceptical he will get to that level. It’s possible, but it’s not my base case.
1
5
Because he can’t even get that right bertha
0
7
As a side note - I did not know (until I read the FT last weekend) that Reform is not an unincorporated association like most political parties - it is a limited company which is majority owned by Farage, with some minority shares for Tice and a few others.
0
5
I know, Sumo, and he's probably just trolling anyway.
0
3
Stru, I think you are probably right, but I have read many articles that suggest even the worse predictions for Tory seats may be optimistic because of tactical voting. It is hard to overestimate the disdain most of the country hold for the current batch of Tories and from my own acquaintences I now many many people who will vote whoever has the best chance of unseating their incumbent Tory MP. I certainly will. On this basis, combined with current overall polling, the Tories really could be almost wiped out. On balance however I think there will be a swing back to the Tories on election day. There always is. Dont know why.
0
3
He must be in a mirror.
0
3
That doesn't make sense.
FFS.
0
6
Maybe he’s just rising his arm?
0
5
struandirk01 May 24 10:22
-Tories are not going to drop below 150 seats or so
The absolute best case for Starmer is a Blair style majority but that was driven by a country that actually positively wanted Blair, and wasn’t voting for “anyone but Tory” like now - Starmer inspires no one, so I am sceptical he will get to that level. It’s possible, but it’s not my base case.
______________________________________________________________________________
I recall when the Tories were predicted a 100 seat majority in 2016 (granted not by Stru)
I'm not sure Blair was "wanted" well in advance of the election - I dimly recall labour being coy (I was quite young) and I think this operation is staying relatively quite until everyone hardens their position on an election manifesto
I will hazzard a guess that that is when we'll see Starmer kissing babies and chugging pints and beating up russians, just in time to wrong foot all the prepared tory meatshield lines
of course we might also see rishi doing some sky diving, snorting vodka off a kate wales' belly and single handedly citizen's arresting fly tippers to wrong foot the labour meatshield lines, particularly that he's an out of touch teetoaller who will ban beer just like he banned cigs if re elected.
0
4
Ok who should I vote for.
I just want
To work for a living and keep most of my money.
Own a nice house and be left alone and in peace.
If I have children that they get a good education without left wing indoctrination
0
2
Labour
HTH
0
5
Crypto01 May 24 10:57
Ok who should I vote for.
I just want
To work for a living and keep most of my money.
Own a nice house and be left alone and in peace.
If I have children that they get a good education without left wing indoctrination
________________________________________________________________________________________
well, it probably goes against your conservative instincts but to get that you probably want to move to bulgaria or czech rep then
Bulgaria has lowest personal and corp tax rates in the EU, 10% or something like that
Czech rep is not far behind, 15% flat rate but you can reduce with entrepreneurs relief to effective rate of 8%? 6%? if you push it.
leichtenstein is a good shout but they only let something like 100 people in year and they're in a customs unions with switzerland whcih you boys don't really like either
0
4
How does that work, Guy? Remember Labour’s enthusiasm for experts and lockdowns. And the ranks of muzzled Labour MPs while the Tories were free (of course SKS probably had one with an aperture for beer bottles).
0
9
Feel free to ignore Crypto, but it's a personal choice based on your values. There's a little bit of focus on how you are immediately affected personally but maybe also consider the affect on your community and long term future.
It's not for anyone to tell you how to vote in that regard and we may not align on values. But dishonesty is a dealbreaker for me and I can't vote for the current Tory party on that basis alone. I may vote for them in the future but not until they return to traditional conservatism and that probably requires a near complete refresh. I'm not sure Reform represent that refresh, so I'm left with the normal gang or spoiling.
1
4
Quips01 May 24 11:22
It's not for anyone to tell you how to vote in that regard and we may not align on values.
_______________________________________________________________________________
on the other hand Quips (though you make a good point) there is nothing wrong with publicly shaming people who think that 14 of this shambles has been good for the UK and that what we need is 5 more years and presumably at least 3 more unelected PMs offering the same
2
5
you need to read up on the causes of crime.
2
8
kids don't get left wing indoctrination in schools. You can bring up your children how you think is best.
0
5
Um. Labour weren't in power during the pandemic. Remember how the tories handles it?
0
4
Crypto, you may wish to accumulate some facts before deciding how to vote. I am sure it will make you feel better, if nothing else.
0
8
*handled
0
7
Reform has just split the boomer vote that used to all go to Tories among the over 50s. Also unfortunately for our anti-woke saviours most people are moderate socially aware centrists, so will not vote for a bunch of incompetent closet racists selling off ERG meat no matter how much lipstick you put on the fascist pig.
0
6
Kimmy -- but Labour was enthusiastic about the lockdowns - they not only supported everything Boris did, they were constantly calling for more restrictions and more closures and more coercive measures - that's just a fact, as is the fact they voted for all the restrictions (which is why Boris was able to pass several votes despite rebellion in his own party).
If you want to somehow absolve them of responsibility for the lockdowns, restrictions and the damage that caused, you're going to have to explain why they voted enthusiastically for them, while calling for more and tighter restrictions.
As for teachers and schools - teachers are overwhelmingly left wing - again that's just common knowledge, but if you want some numbers - see this survey from the TES (note, this is from 2019 before the election that Boris won - there is no doubt it will be skewed even more towards Labour now):
Teacher voting intention:
Tories - around 15%
Labour - around 50%
Lib Dem - around 20%
0
8
https://www.tes.com/magazine/archive/exclusive-poll-tories-drop-third-t…
0
10
I would be amazed if the Tory vote amongst teachers is higher than 10 per cent now.
0
7
I would describe teachers as people with a higher than average social conscience/awareness and a desire to help and educate others (obviously with regard to the latter). If those are qualities that anyone fears their kids being exposed to then I genuinely feel sorry for their kids.
Doesn't the last 14 years tell you anything?
0
6
In all honesty Kimmy, it tells me that you agree with their political views, which is why you describe it in those words.
The whole point is that Crypto doesnt agree with those views (you can disagree of course, but he’s entitled to his views) and wants his kids to grow up with his values, not the ones they get from teachers.
PS - My wife grew up in a council estate in Sunderland and was a state school teacher in East London for many years - in my experience, there are a few like you describe for whom the kids are a vocation - a calling, but for the most part, it’s a job to most of them like any other
0
7
Some teachers teach as their vocation, but also quite a lot are simply materially unambitious and its an easy job to get after university. What it lacks in salary it makes up for by offering opportunities to work in most areas of the country, job security, a good pension and amazing holidays. Lets be honest about this.
1
4
struandirk01 May 24 12:30
As for teachers and schools - teachers are overwhelmingly left wing
____________________________________________________________________________
this is probably true, despite teaching being probably the most conservative thing you can do, since teachers never get exposed to the real world and have only vague observations to go off
however
the idea that kids are indoctrinated to be socialist is down to schools is completely retarded conservative thinking
kinds lean left because they are subject to illogical and autoractic power wielded by power mad arse holes (I would imagine the 15% quoted is skewed heavily towards senior management at schools) until they are about 25 (well, until they were 25, you probably don't get any real freedom until you're 40 these days)
the idea that it is a physics teacher stopping the lesson about calculating speed and not the stagnant wages, half the freedoms their parents enjoyed ripped up, pensions flushed down the drain, homeownership reserved for forrin luxury flat buyers a ton of debt for the degree that their job requires and an ever increasing tax burden to fund tory vanity projects that is pushing people left probably explains why the country has gotten so shitty and backwards in the last 10 years
0
8
this is absolutely fair point - ditto with tozzas voting for the Iraq war etc
0
6
The reason I'm so liberal (what nowadays is called 'libertarian' but isn't really) stems from exactly this.
0
5
lockdowns were a response to a once in a century extreme event. You may have considered them unnecessary, and perhaps in hindsight they did more harm than good, we will probably never really know, but they were the perceived wisdom at the time and most people and most mainstream politicians on all sides supported them. It is bonkers to now base your voting decision on having been anti-lockdown.
0
6
do you actually know many teachers?
0
5
Crypto, get a licensed job in jersey.
0
5
stru - I didn't say teaching was a vocation and am well aware of the benefits of it as a job, as well as the nightmare that it can be these days. And I don't know the political views of the vast majority of teachers.
My point is that any values kids would get from their teachers are probably going to be benign. If someone is so concerned about their kids being exposed to harmful political rhetoric at school that they vote Reform (I mean, wtf?) then I really do feel sorry for the kids.
Of course any parent with strong views is going to want their kids to follow suit.
I'm not saying Crypto (or anyone else) isn't entitled to their views, but if people post them on here then it's for others to respond, right?
1
7
Kimmy01 May 24 13:57
My point is that any values kids would get from their teachers are probably going to be benign. If someone is so concerned about their kids being exposed to harmful political rhetoric at school that they vote Reform (I mean, wtf?) then I really do feel sorry for the kids.
___________________________________________________________________________________
I kind of suspect what's happening here is that private schools spend a huge chunk of time force feeding kids who have been abandoned in what amounts to an expensive borstal frothing rightwing nonsense (it certaintly explains the last couple of governments)
so they assume state schools must be doing the same when all their doing is telling 5 year olds to share the crayons and trying to get teenagers to give a fcuk about french vowels
you want to worry about left wing indoctrination, it's Google, Facebook and social media spreading american nonsense doing the heavy lifting
0
5
Some of these State schools sound horrendous. Strict to the point of tyranny, and over petty things too like what colour of pencil-case you carry. That Birbalsingh character is bordering on fascist.
0
8
As most posters will remember I was outraged at the Tories for the constant lockdowns. Guy and I even agreed in our opposition at the end.
I’ve said I’m not supporting the Tories so forget them.
However, how can I support Labour? The whole party is expert infested and wanted more lockdowns and state intervention. I want less.
0
5
Kimmy - you are making my point for me. The reason you are saying "the values kids get from most teachers will be benign" is because you agree with those values.
Would you say the same about sending your kids to an extreme Islamic faith school? Is that because the teachers there are somehow less dedicated/sincere/bad people? Of course not - it's because you don't agree with the values being imparted there and don't want your kids to be imbued with those values.
Although not so extreme, Crypto's views on state schools are directionally similar - they teach values he doesn't like (it's hard for you to see this, because you agree with those values).
0
5
Guy - I know you believe that about lockdowns - it's the general attitude most people have taken ("it was unprecedented..couldn't have known better..did our best at the time..some damage happened..oh well, it's behind us now") - but it's simply not factually true (not accusing you of lying).
Lockdowns and harsh restrictions were never planned for pandemics and always considered counterproductive - all the scientific literature, government scenario planning and so forth for the 20 years before COVID was based around a Sweden-style approach.
That is the approach most of the world started with too (including the UK), in January/Feb 2020 (when it started to become clear something big was happening).
Then the Chinese went nuts locking down in Wuhan, then Northern Italy panicked and ordered a regional lockdown and then the panic spread everywhere in the March 10-20 period (escalated by the flawed Imperial report etc) and everyone followed locking down like dominoes, and Boris flip flopped his original decision to go the Sweden route and locked down a week later. And everything was then back-rationalized later to justify decisions that had already been made in panic.
We did know better at the time - we just got panicked (as a society) into some extreme measures and then were forced to justify it for two years until the restrictions collapsed.
And there were plenty of mainstream people arguing against it and saying it was a mistake (especially after the first lockdown where I can at least understand the panic to some extent) - they were just overruled and overwhelmed through panic and fearmongering - everyone from Jonathan Sumption to 50-60 Tory MPs, to Nobel Prize winner in medicine and Stanford professor John Ioannidis and more.
0
5
(not to mention the entire country of Sweden which inconveniently for the pro-lockdown people did not see hordes of people dying on the streets and an overwhelmed healthcare system)
0
5
PS - I ranted enough about this in 2020/21 so I will stop now, but just to add - although not as widely reported, Japan also did not have a lockdown and only closed schools for 1 month (in March 2020) - basically other than closing the borders and a non-binding request to wear masks, they did nothing, and nothing much happened there either.
0
4
Stru, my point is that if you are going to refuse to vote for people who supported lockdown you are never going to find a mainstream party to support again. Sometimes you just find yourself against mainstream opinion, perhaps wrongly, perhaps rightly, but at some point when this is no longer an active issue you just have to let it go.
I was massively against the Iraq war, and am satisfied in hindsight that I was right and it was a huge mistake, but that does mean I refuse ever to vote for Labour or the Tories ever again.
0
10
I agree with that Guy
Join the discussion