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Bigotry

Interesting point by Rob (sorry for stealing this) on the VAT thread who gave as evidence that Starmer is a bigot the fact that he refused to go to a black church unless they were “down with” his LGBT+ views.

Is this evidence of bigotry by him or is it evidence that the church in question is bigoted and he’s refusing to endorse it? Should he have gone to the church to show support for racial minorities and, perhaps, made a statement while there about LGBT+ to be fair?

This is the whole paradox of tolerance thing isn’t it?

At a certain point the state has to shut down the intolerance or it will take over. 

Though I don’t think a Starner government will shut down anti-LGBT+ churches. But not attending/endorsing them is probably a good start. 

@Jim  My point in particular is that Starmer seemed to have a different view as to what is acceptable from a predominantly black church re LGBT+ than what is accept from non-black church (e.g. Hillsong) or Jewish or Muslim congregation.

Several of my black friends have said that to them it seems that Starmer was holding predominantly black churches to a different standard - perhaps because they are independent congregations and have much less "official" recognition. 

Sorry Rob, I misunderstood. Is there any news article or otherwise about it where he refused to attend a black church but agreed to go to another with the same LGBT views? I wasn’t aware of this happening but happy to be educated (and would agree if that were the case that it certainly has the look of different standards).

Looking at those two, the difference appears to be that he apologised for visiting the first but not the second.

Is this not because the first church is still of the view that being gay is a sin and the minister he met had signed letters opposing gay marriage whilst the clergyman in the second has been alleged to have links to an anti-gay church but has not personally and publicly come out with anything homophobic?

Or have I misread?

@Jim  The clergyman he met in the second story is national leader of Great Britain's branch of the World Assemblies of God Fellowship. This is what they say regarding sexuality and marriage: https://news.ag.org/en/articles/news/2017/04/world%20ag%20committed%20t…

It's exactly the same as the first church, i.e. homosexual acts are sinful and doesn't agree with gay marriage.

Starmer apologised for visiting the black church. 

And of course Starmer has been happy to visit Jewish Orthodox synagogues and Muslim mosques ...

Starmer should make it easy on himself and everyone around him and apologise for everything he has done or said. A nice blanket to cover everything. 

Always thought that in some ways the emergence of bigotry in traditionally marginalized groups was a sign of progress.  Like things had progressed enough that the shitty evil people of that particular group didn't need to focus on their own personal struggle anymore, and could instead commit time to being the arseholes they always were and shitting on some other minority.  Like Black churches, that 40-50 years ago were ALL about human rights, now hating on gay people, or pretend feminists who used to be ALL about equality and tolerance and human rights, suddenly indulging the most vile bigotry and cruelty against other minorities.  You even get gay people, like that utterly vile black lesbian barrister whats-her-name, suddenly stabbing trans people in the back, the very people who used to be shoulder to shoulder with her in support of her struggle for rights.  Progress eh?     

sorry for not being a bible thumping godbotherer and being out of the loop on terminology 

I didn't know the churches were segregated in england, I thought it was just all the same church

Does it rather not depend on the purpose of the visit?  If you're going to say an orthodox synagogue to challenge them on their LGBT views that is rather different to simply visiting a church that has bigoted opinions because it's hosting a local charity that is being promoted.

Warren have you seen Stonewall are fine with misgendering now, in their public statement saying it’s like criticising a religion?  Will you be taking people who correctly sex trans identified people because they don’t believe in gender identities off your “bigot” list?

The black female barrister is called Allison Bailey by they way, which you could have found out by Googling.  She didn’t stab anyone in the back, she asserted the sex-based rights she’s spent decades fighting for, and she won.

And I’d never have said that 20 years ago fwiw. But we really are in an absurd position, thanks to social media, group think and authoritarian cum totalitarianism. This all needs to be cleared out by a good dose of abject penury. It’s very simple, you can grant people whatever rights you like, whether by law or the court of public opinion. If the economy is fvcked then they will be unable to exercise those rights because the courts won’t enforce them, meaning they will be ignored by all but the most hobbled public bodies - who nobody cares about and will have even further reduced funding in the future. 

The market will decide the true value of this balls. 

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