what is it about these men that makes them react to their own inadequacy by wanting to KILL women? it's fcking nuts. How does the logical leap work? Do ALL men think they have a right to be found attractive and it's just that most are well-adjusted enough to find outlets for this mad expectation? why on earth don't they feel embarrassed with themselves?
also, pretty freaky to think that when we (women) are out and about minding our own businesses we are probably passing men thinking horrible murderous thoughts
can't get a date in the gym so stab a random 50 year old in the mall why not
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very glad he got shot by a woman anyway
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I think women are just a symptom of something larger. Basically there are people in this world who are sufficiently deluded that they persuade themselves that their failure is nothing to do with a lack of education or their own failings and that it's society that is holding them back from the success they deserve. It's easier to blame the opposite sex and take it out on them than it is to attack other parts of the system that they blame like the deep state.
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Is he a confirmed incel?
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but how can a system deliver them sex? I guess the answer is that they don't think women are people, just vaginal apertures and/or sandwichmakers and toilet cleaners and just as they might smash a malfunctioning microwave they smash the nearest "female" if things aren't going their way
it makes me so fcking mad - men - consider you might just be shyt!
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his dad said he probably did it because he was desperate for a girlfriend but had no social skills and was "frustrated out of his brain"
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No he was an ‘escort’ for a while.
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he did seem to target women entirely and the security guard was killed trying to stop him
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he advertised his services as an escort - very doubtful any women ever procured his services
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Do ALL men think they have a right to be found attractive
no,
Do ALL women think that?
Why should you think ALL men think that.
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my experience of men is that they tend to have very high opinions of themselves and react with outrage if their own high self esteem isn't reflected in the eyes of those around them
steadfastly not ALL men but I would say it is a discernible trend
the incel killer thought arc is obviously far more extreme than the standard
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most women react with self-loathing rather than aggression if they feel rejected by others
again, not all women (twitter/X keeps algorithming me pictures of outraged women having fights and I wonder if this is the new way of the world)
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but how can a system deliver them sex? I guess the answer is that they don't think women are people, just vaginal apertures and/or sandwichmakers and toilet cleaners
Maybe, or maybe the opposite - what hurts so much is the loneliness and alienation, knowing full well how important it is to have meaning in a relationship, how good it must feel to have a woman WANT you, to be thinking about you, wanting physical and emotional intimacy.
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Yeah it's very sad and hard I get that
I don't get "so I'll kill those bitches" as a reaction
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Is it sexist to suggest that ALL men are sexist?
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And so often they're perfectly decent looking guys who could probably do fine if they'd just shut it a bit.
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Not convinced (yet) that this is an incel attack - lots of loons hate & murder women for non incel reasons
<awaits gaga’s definitive incel history of Jack The Ripper>
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Just shutting up is a great strategy tbf. Neil on Inbetweeners was a great role model.
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What did these fellows do in days gone by?
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For a long time women needed male partner so some unlucky wench would end up stuck with them
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For this reason the economic emancipated of women is a bugbear for many incels
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Rham they believe that women have been educated to believe they can all have a gorgeous man and a dream home and a family so these guys believe that they are being discriminated against because they are not the vision of male attractiveness that you see in the press. It's not that different to women struggling to live up to the photos of models in magazines but men react to it by lashing out rather than going on a diet.
It's the sadly common belief that they have failed because of society and nothing is their fault.
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Story of Cain. Man's natural reaction to improper sacrifices not being rewarded is wrath against God and violence against people.
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I think there were (ironically) more role-models for men who were unable to attract the opposite sex in the past than there are now.
Lots of people married to their jobs, living in all/very heavily male environments, where the absence of a partner was just not a thing (the church, academia, the sea, etc etc).
Clearly some of them were repressed gays, but I suspect a fair number were just putting whole sex thing out of thier mind and concentrating on athenian poetry, standing watch of Ushant, etc etc.
It's not to say violence against women never happened (Sweet Fanny Adams is always a good one to throw at "it never happened in the good old days crowd"), but you do wonder how many modern incels would just have been confirmed batchelors who knew an awful lot about st Paul's letter to the Galatians
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Yeah I'm not talking about the 19th century.
I mean, like, 30-40 years ago. It wasn't a thing.
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Presumably mean the RC Church? The Church of England has long expected its vicars to get married.
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Dux until very recently women could not support themselves - as soon as they could, and given we don't tend to need sex as strongly, those guys were fcked.
I took was thinking about monks etc, cam. The noble life of brother cadfael etc. why can't they aim for that instead.
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I know he was fictional but he could have existed.
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I was reading some stories of women in the 1940's and 1950's and their journey to getting married.
Several said that their boyfriends had said they would kill them if they didn't get married and in one case the father said he would kill his daughter if she didn't marry.
it was a surprising trend, a marriage proposal with a side order of violence.
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My guess is there is an increasing tendency to blame society rather than taking a good hard look at yourself first.
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yeah exactly those guys dw! they still exist it's just now they have to have some compensating appeal for women to not say "get fcked mate"
what I find weird is that the men themselves can't see this is fair
they look at the situation and think "yeah I should be able to treat women like shyt and for them to have no escape - this is fair"
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This is nonsense. It is true, I admit, that women couldn't obtain a mortgage without a male guarantor until the 1970s, but in other respects women have been perfectly capable of looking after themselves for over a hundred years without getting married. I had numerous maiden (great) aunts. One of them just upped sticks and went to California in her mid-twenties, and that was before the first war.
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no one is saying there weren't outliers but single women were more vulnerable and less protected
it is true now - abherrant males leave women alone more if they have a male partner
the whole "my husband will need to look at that" thing works like a mad charm
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women couldn't earn as much
women couldn't get credit
women couldn't socialise as freely
being a woman until very recently sucked
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Fair enough. Maybe the Ducks family has had an unusual number of go-ahead women.
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It’s because he was nuts
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he was a woman-hating terrorist
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On terms of the CofE, regular parish clergy were encouraged to marry, but huge chunks of non-parochial functions were much more unmarried.
"He never married" is a fairly common line in obituaries...
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Cauchi wasn’t an incel, he was dangerously mentally i’ll with schizophrenia HTH
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‘he was a woman-hating terrorist‘
Indeed, but not necessarily an incel
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Are there more of these incidents now than previously?
I know mental health services have been cut to the bone in many countries (including UK) but there are also less triggering events (wars etc) than previously, although inequality etc is rising
If this event happened in the 70/80s etc would we even know about it?
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Rhamnousia15 Apr 24 10:15
Reply |
most women react with self-loathing rather than aggression if they feel rejected by others
again, not all women (twitter/X keeps algorithming me pictures of outraged women having fights and I wonder if this is the new way of the world)
I think most men react with self loathing as well. While this is not the only reason so many men kill themselves it can certainly be a factor.
What Cam says is certainly an issue in this, as is the decline of places where lonely men could go and have some company (churches, local pubs, clubs, hobby groups etc.). People are much less accepting than they were. When I was a kid we used to go drink in the local labour club (because they would serve us underage and it was cheap). There were some deeply, deeply weird men who went there. Nobody would have been massively keen to engage with them but provided they weren't violent or ludicrously offensive they were tolerated and people knew their name and said hello and they played in the raffle and watched the sport on telly and got some sense of belonging. They often had 'out there' views about conspiracy theories or whatever and if they started banging on people would just 'oh I don't about that Bert and smile and move on'.
This guy seems to be have been absolutely desperate for some company.
Combine that with the increasing mainstream cultural fear and loathing of all things overtly masculine and you have increasing numbers of men just excluded from society with nowhere to go. They end up on the internet looking for company but people are often horrible there and they end up in echo chambers of similar people and their views get weirder and weirder.
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Incels are socially awkward narcissists. They are the people you thought were ultra weird in school so avoided them.
In our generation they were loners and didn't have an outlet, most ended up getting laid at uni or found a kindred spirit there and left it at that, although still hugely misogynistic.
Today, they have forums they go to for community where getting a partner is frowned upon and they will turn on you if you do. They go deeper down that rabbit hole and egg each other on. Elliot Rogers is god like to them. I watched a documentary on him over the weekend and he was clearly on the spectrum (meaning that what he understood to be attractive to women was a book learned behaviour rather than socially learned).
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Where/when/how does this manifest itself? I've genuinely never noticed it
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there definitely is a culture nowadays of denigrating men and masculinity
it doesn’t justify men hurting women ofc, but there is literally nil doubt it is a thing
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when they look into Cauchi’s background will they find it a case study of mental health services routinely failing men, as they do in this country? will they will they hmm hmm
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On the incel thing, there are thousands of examples of traditionally unattractive people with traditionally attractive partners. Usually, that’s because the unattractive partner has other qualities. Charm, humour, etc… and in some cases wealth. Alternatively, there are lots of traditionally unattractive people with partners who are about the same as them.
If you’re an incel, you’re either a prick or you think you’re entitled to a partner at a level of attractiveness which is disproportionate to your qualities. Get some bant or settle. But defo avoid stabbing people because you’ve got no bant or won’t settle.
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Might this because of the prevalence of men like you who publicly write about women purely as sexual objects or their hardcore pornography obsessions?
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Dux - google 'toxic masculinity'
By mainstream I mean actually mainstream. Not the Telegraph, Daily Mail and Spectator.
YWTF - I think that is (more than a bit) unfair. A fair amount of 'incel' stuff is just utter b*ll*cks but there are definitely more 'spare men' around in the west (and indeed elsewhere) than there have been for a while and fewer places for them to fit in.
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If there are spare men, there are spare women too. In roughly equal amounts, I presume.
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How can there be spare men when there are more women than men? Do lesbians outnumber gay men by a massive margin or summit?
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N/A as your premise is total balls
hope this clarifies
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men have the weakness of their sex drives
most women could be content enough without sex
I don't think the same is true for men (although how much of this is innate and how much socialised idk)
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So, can anyone cite any actual examples of this?
It sounds a bit like some people are saying...
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I haven’t read all this thread but my initial understanding from the news is that the suspect had a mental illness. Bearing in mind what happened he could be psychotic which would mean he would see or believe things that were not true. This makes the above irrelevant.
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Denigrating the consumption of consensual pornography, the straight variety of which is, of course,!produced with the active and free will participation of women exercising their own right to an economic choice (and sometimes for a laugh) is itself an example of a man-hating behaviour ofc, an antisocial behavioural manifestation for which Pinko has years of form.
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Incel theory is that all the ‘spare’ women are in a sort of chad harem
I recall gaga posted a link to some study re online dating along these lines
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Googling "toxic masculinity" just brings up lots of examples of macho idiocy, or "toxic masculinity", so not sure that helps particularly.
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he had schizophrenia but that doesn't mean he was psychotic at the time
his father identified his failings with women as a likely driving factor
he targeted women
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he was schizophrenic and there is no doubt whatsoever that had a major effect on his actions, now stop being a total melt
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fully agree with donny on this thread
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Having bravely researched the adult entertainers you have previously named on this website, it seems to me incredibly likely that the porn you have accessed and recommended here - while consensual - is of a kind which is often degrading and violent (fake or real). This is the kind of porn which is often accessed by children and has normalised practises such as choking, slapping, spitting on women, as well as increased an expectation from boys to participate in anal sex.
In a trans twist, the broad availability of such material corrolates with a huge spike in young girls wanting to be boys. If I was a young girl and thought the female role in the kind of porn you’ve mentioned is what is expected of me, I’d probably want to be a boy too.
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Yes, so you've said. But both of you have failed to cite any examples of this mainstream misandry.
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Largely what Eddie said. There was an old eccentric who lived in a little cottage down the road from me when I was growing up and he just pottered about going about his own business and was largely left alone. In this day and age he'd be able to go online and find other similar men and egg each other on to confirm that it's not their fault and society has done them over by creating unrealistic expectations. Basically just another category of person who would have been the village idiot/weirdo in a bygone era.
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It very likely does mean he was psychotic at the time.
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If there was less toxic masculinity in society, then surely we wouldn't have all these weirdos in the first place.
Smash the patriarchy!
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“Having bravely researched the adult entertainers you have previously named on this website, it seems to me incredibly likely that the porn you have accessed and recommended here - while consensual - is of a kind which is often degrading and violent (fake or real).”
unsurprisingly given we know where you went to university, your deductive powers here have proven completely wrong
not to mention the woeful exercise in self-serving conclusion-jumping that is your second para
take some time out and learn to think, m99
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Not another Oxford man? RoF is swarming with them.
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Elephant - why does it? There's no evidence either way. He targeted women which suggests to me that he was aware of reality to some extent. His father thought an incel killing was feasible. Prison is full of schizophrenics - the diagnosis doesn't render you incapable of committing a crime.
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Manchester was a great university to go to. What a massively snobby posho thing to say.
A simple search of the adult “entertainers” you have named immediately demonstrates the kind of porn you watch and recommend on here. It is exactly as described above.
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Manchester is a fine institution. Ludicrous criticism.
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unfortunately for you, negative m88
I am not a particularly avid consumer of pornography in any event, although like all adult males, without exception, I do watch some. I do not however watch anything that could remotely be described as violent.
Now I have already treated your bizarre and self-regarding judgements as to other people’s lives to far more attention than they merit.
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although tbf I do like saying massively snobby piano things to say, because I am a massively snobby posho, and proud of it
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Can someone explain why being a schizo would make him more likely to target women? Or was it coincidence that all twelve victims were female?
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Manchester is UK top 10 and I am not sure your alma mater is laz tbf
(not that I hold with such throwbacks)
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mine is currently number 5 so in ALL your faces
obviously also it's the oxford AND cambridge of the North
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my alma mater was recently ranked the third best university in the world, HTH
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The one you did at the normal time, I mean
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You went to MIT Laz?
PS - anyone who says Alma Mater unironically is a massive twot.
It’s like calling Dixons and asking if they sell auxiliary speakers for your Alba stereo system a propos achieving surround sound.
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Let me guess, Laz. Exeter? Durham (assume too close to home but would make sense if the porn addiction stems from mummy issues)
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well exCUSE me
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You would need 2 consultant forensic psychiatrists to answer that question properly 3Dux. In any events the opinion of his father won’t carry much evidential weight.
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Isn't it more obvious to assume he just h8d women?
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My grandfather was one of 10, 7 were boys. Only 2 of them married - two of the men. I think there has always a group of men (and women) who never married either in the old days because they were gay and could not stomach a fake marriage to a woman or because they were not interested or not attractive enough.
As to what also happened in the past a lot of men died in wars and I suppose in some cultures - fundamentalist mormons ( 7 gets you to the highest level of heaven and 3 at least is needed), Abraham & Co in the bible and Islam today )up to 4 wives) or rich men - sometimes one wife an quite a few other women on the side, having more than one for those men was a norm whilst others went with none.
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re the general discussion on this thread, male expectations have been embedded into society for centuries legally and culturally: expectations of sex, to earn more, for women to do the bulk of childcare and domestic chores, for women to be subordinate in the workplace and the home, for women to be less able and intelligent generally. For some men, when they do not have these perceived entitlements, they need someone to blame.
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I used Abraham & Co for conveyancing. The guy was ancient but he did a hell of a Job.
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Heh at this thread going from exploring the sociological and psychological roots of the tragedy to a bunch of middle-aged lawyers willy-waving (or the biological female equivalent thereof) about where they went to uni.
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Paging Gaga!
I think the majority of incels live quiet sad lIves. Its the minority that are violent.
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This is getting a bit overcomplicated isn't it? Some people, about 10-15% of any group you care to name, are just shitty humans. They use whatever tool they have to get their way, including taking out their personal inadequacies and failures on others to make themselves feel better. Dude hated women, he could easily have hated black people or Muslims (actually, I'd not be surprised if he did). I'm sure there are lots of people with imbedded misogynistic views, they don't go out and stab people.
The lesbian community apparently has a real problem with domestic violence, and there are increasing numbers of cases of women being involved in the killing children. The problem is not a particular arbitrary group like men or black people or trans people, it's specific evil individuals being evil. Unfortunately, for their own often ideological reasons, people like to buy into their retarded excuses for their behaviour "Oh I couldn't get sex, society these days blah blah" Fook off, you're just a nasty murdering shit.
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Surely being schizophrenic just makes it more likely that as well as being encouraged by fellow incels he'll hear voices telling him it's all the fault of women as my understanding is that the voices and other personalities are all just part of our sub-conscious.
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Interesting assertions. Please supply evidence.
Any insight on why trans women have the same rate of sex offending as men, or do you accept the statement that "the trans community has a real problem with sex offending"?
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The overwhelming majority of men essentially can't get laid now .
If this is what drove him to this then it would be happening everywhere every day
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‘The overwhelming majority of men essentially can't get laid now‘
Citation needed
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Seems that there has been another Sydney stabbing but this in a church during a service. Obviously someone who thought that the representations of good looking priests in modern culture stopped him becoming a priest.
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"The overwhelming majority of men essentially can't get laid now ."
So you are saying something like 60%+ of men can't get laid?
Or more?
That doesn't sound right to me. Receipts?
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Davos. NIH study here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7293001/
Not anything like 60% but certainly some statements that are aligned in direction with what Gaga says (albeit much smaller in magnitude):
The stats in the NIH study are from 2018, so pre-Covid. I suspect that there has been continued travel in the same direction over the past five years.
The NIH study says that this phenomenon hadn't been seen in UK stats as of 2011, but 2011 is quite a long way away now.
In the 1980s and 90s there was concern re teenage pregnancy rates. By the 00s teenage pregnancy numbers had fallen a lot. Do you ever here mention of teenage pregnancy now? We know that sexual activity had dropped among teenagers and that seems to be following through to people in their 20s.
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Ok so a reasonably large minority of young men and women are sexually inactive
Young people are screwed aren't they. Just not literally
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Is the rise in trans-curious biological females greater than the rise in trans-curious biological males ?
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Yes: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37698232/
(Apologies for the horrific “assigned”)
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no but remember that’s because tRAnS fEMalEs aRe PERveRt mEn AcTInG oUt thEIr seXuAl fANTaSIeS aND wElL tHAt’S alL mEn reAlLY iSN’t iT
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Not all trans women are sexual deviants, just exactly the same proposition as other men.
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