Discussion

Main Board| Accommodation Wanted| Accommodation Offered
Start a new discussion on this board

Let your next career move come to you.

The tories’ generationally staggered smoking ban proposal
Sir Woke XR Re… 16 Apr 24 17:53
Reply |

heh @ the old farts’ party nakedly granting old farts an exemption from regulation

It's a sensible way to ens the tobacco industry in the UK tbh and the EU will no doubt follow suit in a few years.

Gently weans government off the tax revenue it's become used to as fewer people smoke. Frees up a lot of NHS resoufce but not all on one go so people can retrain in time. And as the ban will become widespread more slowly it will be respected rather than iif it were just an immediate outright ban which would be circumvented.

Interesting to get more information from NZ but I suspect that in families where parents smoke kids will still end up trying it and probably pinching cigarettes from parents and no doubt some oldster will help circumvent the ban but generally a good thing.  I shall enjoy retirement quietly puffing away with a beer in a pub garden because I can.

I expect any ban will have the same level of success as when the Americans banned alcohol.  Or how no one uses cocaine anymore.

Or how we ban murders yet there are still murders.  Any idiot can see how unsuccessful these sort of policies are

What I find staggering is the lack of opposition to this monstrous infringement of liberty. Not a single Labour MP voted against. As for the "Liberal" [sic] Democrats, they should be ashamed of themselves.

And the populace just roll over and accept it like the weak-kneed losers that they are. 70% of boomers support this measure, although admittedly the figure is much lower among the young.  

What happened to the natural liberal instincts of Englishmen, who in past generations would have considered this unconscionable? 

wonder what's next

Well, compulsory ID cards for one thing. They've already started to go down that route with the requirement to produce ID to vote. 

Then I suspect very heavy restrictions of the consumption of alcohol, culminating in prohibition. 

Then, who knows? 

the ID card it already here.  Try voting without one.  They've backdoored it..

Yes Eddie banning guns after dunblane had no benefits at all

It's great to learn that no one has been shot since Dunblane, in any part of the UK.  Nothing in Cumbria or Plymouth, that's for sure.

How does this ban work with possible cannabis legalisation?  It seems odd to me that it would be more legal to access cannabis than tobacco.  

I'm again at a loss as to how policy gets decided in the UK.  It seems to swing from one direction to the other based on the happenstance of a handful of people being in certain places in government / establishment.  It was interesting to hear Truss say that this cigarette ban was in the works for a while but was scuppered previously by that bon vivant chain smoker Therese Coffey.  (I suspect former health secretary Ken Clarke would also not have been on board.)  

I thought you had to be 18 to buy cigs (and booze) already.

Doesn't bother me, I'm over 60, and don't really smoke anyway. In America I still get ID'd when buying wine or beer. Its company policy to ID everyone, even if someone is clearly in their 90s, a cashier said to me once, saves hassle.

IDs all round.

Personally I always carry ID in case I am unexpectedly required to vote, it's virtually mandatory these days.

This reminds me to that seatbelt business, yet look what happened to Princess Diana - failed by an ill-thought out policy that didn't work

I thought you had to be 18 to buy cigs (and booze) already.

Yes. You thought right.

Doesn't bother me, I'm over 60, and don't really smoke anyway. 

That's ok then. Makes you wonder why it's even being discussed.

In America I still get ID'd when buying wine or beer. Its company policy to ID everyone, even if someone is clearly in their 90s, a cashier said to me once, saves hassle.

Aside from the question as to why ID-ing someone is less hassle than not ID-ing someone, I'm not 100% sure you've grasped the point. 

Vaping will be banned too eventually but probably not until at least 2035. 

 

It's useful at the moment for getting adult smokers off tobacco. 

 

It is also useful to tobacco producers for getting children addicted to nicotine which is why it will ultimately be banned.

This will be a real boost for the cross channel bootlegging industry. 

the people smugglers will quickly realise they can get more for a dinghy full of illicit fags

Smoking has been dying out for decades so it's just accelerating its demise.  Booze is much more commonly enjoyed so will always be harder to get rid of.

Just imagine seamless services where you only have to present one card instead of having an NHS card, an NI card, a driving licence, a passport, etc.  Perhaps even a single reference number used in all your dealings with public services.

Dux i suspect the reason this isn’t exciting the muuuuh freedums brigade is because

 a) smoking affects those around you, it’s not an activity you do without consequence. Most people don’t want smoke blown in their face because it stinks and it kills you. 

b) it costs the NHS a fvcking fortune and non smokers pick up most of the bill (even taking into account the duty on fags)

FF the duty on fags isnt the main benefit that smoking gives the excehquer. the main benefit is the. huge reduction of life expectancy in old age which saves a fortune in state pension and other costs associated with elderly people

The stat I saw was the net cost to the exchequer is something like £17bn

Smokers are very much ‘over represented’ in the expensive areas of the NHS

So for all the pension savings we are coughing up (so to speak) far more

FF I am willing to bet the figure you saw to not take into account huge savings in pensions payments and health care costs of those that live to old age.  We all have to die of something and most of us will end up requiring expensive medical care at some point, but smokers just die earlier.

The same US cashier said to me 'I can't tell whether some of the dudes that come in here are 18 or 21, they're 6'5" or more, 300lbs or more. I don't want to get into anything with them'. 

Hence ID.

Will try and find it, but bear in mind that smokers don’t all die off at 65, they tend to live longer than that but in poor health 

Anyway, just massively tug light and hope that the ‘gaming’ ‘industry’ goes the same way sooner rather than later 

are we into the tyranny of the NHS now then 1 if something costs the NHS money does that override liberty  (bearing in mind you can’t opt out of the NHS)?

Sounds like balls. People should be free to make bad choices as well as good and the NHS should be there as a tax funded mop-up.

‘are we into the tyranny of the NHS now then 1 if something costs the NHS money does that override liberty‘

Not necessarily, just pointing out that muuuuh freedoms can (and often do) come at a cost to others so it’s no necessarily the noble cause that some people make it out to be

"Sounds like a good wheeze. How does the annuity provider know you weren't just pretending to inhale 60 a day? "

I presume they do blood tests?  Dunno, but it is a real thing.

As I’ve said I’d be less opposed to it if there was a sunset  clause at say 25. I doubt many people take up smoking after about 20 so having that would achieve the policy’s aim without banning a 30 something from doing something. 

Rob I’m not seeing any serious move to legalise cannabis in the U.K. 

And cookie is right this should apply to vapes too. 

It's the nail in the coffin for any notion I might have had of voting Labour. 

The Green Party is the only mainstream party to have opposed this utter travesty.  

It’s an outrageous idea.  NZ’s new government has killed it already.  Such a stupid plan when we are effectively on the slow march to legalising cannabis and also under-regulating vapes.

NZ government killed it because a ideologue right wing government took over, not because of a re-think.  Smoking is quite unique (and I say this as an ex smoker) that there are virtually no benefits to it, people only start because they think it makes them cool and grown up (event today public health messaging cannot quite kill off the legacy of a century of sophisticated tobacco advertising) after that for 95% of people (yes I know Sails will pop up and say he enjoys a smoke with a drink and that is it but he is in a tiny minority amongst middle aged smokers) it is just feeding an addiction - no relaxation, no high, just scratching an itch.      Nobody will really lose out from this measure, they will only benefit.

Rare agree with Guy as a recovering smoker - not clear you’re ever free from the addiction tbh. But it’s important to remember all sorts of behaviour currently indulged by society, par example being a c unt on the internet, will in the future be seen as unhealthy and addictive, so be kind. 

The greens aren’t mainstream. 

They're at 8% in the opinion polls. Hardly obscure.

What’s Green about smoking??

There's nothing green about driving either, but they don't want to ban it ffs. They at least pretend to be vaguely liberal, unlike the rest of them. 

Smoking is quite unique (and I say this as an ex smoker) that there are virtually no benefits to it

There are no "benefits" to drinking alcohol either. It leads to violence, poverty and poor health. 

And it's not a question of passive smoking either, as this was dealt with in previous legislation, which effectively prevents people from smoking in public places. 

alcohol has huge downsides but it is also a major social lubricant in our culture, removing alcohol would hugely impact our society in the way removing tobacco does not.  I have drunk all my adult life and do not regret it as on balance I would say it has improved my life.  Smoking never did, it was just an addiction to be satisfied.

of further significance is that the vast majority of people who drink alcohol drink when they choose and are not addicts, the vast majority of smokers are addicts.

A lot of people die in old age with relatively little medical treatment.  Smokers will often need cancer treatment which is fooking expensive so I'm not sure that a few years saving £80 a week really makes up for it.

You can try to justify it all you want, but you know perfectly well that the Chris Whittys of the world will be clamouring for prohibition of alcohol next. They don't care about liberty or "social lubricants", (whatever TF means). They just care about imposing the strictest possible health measures on the population, and our pathetic Nannying politicians will go along with it. 

Not that it's remotely relevant, but I'm a hell of a lot more dependent on booze than I am on an occasional cigar, or the pipe I light up on a summer's evening. Would my life be better off I didn't drink? Yes of course it would. But it's no business of the State. 

I doubt the 20% of people who smoke make a huge difference to a general election.  However, I'd guess that something like 75% of the population drink regularly...

Smoking is quite unique (and I say this as an ex smoker) that there are virtually no benefits to it, [...] Nobody will really lose out from this measure, they will only benefit.

 

This.

Tbf i would probably be fine with smoking being permitted in your own home and nowhere else. But on balance this ban is a good idea.

I doubt the 20% of people who smoke make a huge difference to a general election.  However, I'd guess that something like 75% of the population drink regularly...

It's not going to affect either the 20% or the 75%. They'll all be dead. 

"A lot of people die in old age with relatively little medical treatment.  Smokers will often need cancer treatment which is fooking expensive so I'm not sure that a few years saving £80 a week really makes up for it."

Most of the NHS budget is taken up with looking after the elderly.  I do not for one second think a significant number of people die of old age without needing lots of medical treatment in the meantime.  Not sure what the £80 a week is reference to, the state pension is over £200 per week.

The elderly who have health problems tend to have multiple problems so take up a disproportionate amount of resources.  Consider my parents where dad has cancer, heart failure, a hernia and asthma compounded by the hernia but my mum just has a bit of arthritis.  One takes up a lot of health resources and the other doesn't.

I was just going on the reduced rate my mum gets as a result of not having all of the qualifying NI payments over her lifetime.

I can't speak for your anecdotal evidence, nor how many "youngsters" you hang out with, but only 43% of under-25s support a prohibition (as opposed to 70% of boomers), perhaps the most encouraging statistic I've heard for a long time, as it suggests there is some glimmer of hope for liberalism in the future. 

I think everything should be legal, unless there's a compelling argument that it would cause suffering so unconscionable that deprivation of personal liberty by the State is the only solution. Tobacco doesn't even come close to that threshold. 

It used to be sociable. A rite of passage. Do people forget. Or perhaps they never knew. Sending plumes of ash out through the electric vent in the showers. Romantic. Now it's furtive and solitary. Arrestable. 

think everything should be legal, unless there's a compelling argument that it would cause suffering so unconscionable that deprivation of personal liberty by the State is the only solution. Tobacco doesn't even come close to that threshold. 

I agree with your first sentence, disagree with your second.  The benefits of smoking are 99% a lie sold by the tobacco companies, and the lies still linger for the young. The costs are on average 10 years loss of life.   That crosses the threshold as far as I am concerned.

"Sad" hardly describes it. This isn't a trivial matter. It's the start of a steep slippery slope towards dangerous authoritarianism, and the British public just sit there like moribund vegetables, accepting it all. 

Sounds like a good wheeze. How does the annuity provider know you weren't just pretending to inhale 60 a day? 

I have a m7 (in his 30s) who tells his doctor he smokes like a chimney to set this up well in advance

Join the discussion

Login Register