The right decision. It is impossible to see the murders as anything but abhorrent.

The open letter was co-signed by 31 persons, but it seems that these 31 persons (or at least a large number of them) denied having given their consent to such signature and/or being aware of the content of the letter... 

It just shows (i) how stupid they are (not to have anticipated the obvious, i.e. the reaction of the firms/legal market) and (ii) that they are just cowards, as they don't even have the courage to bear the consequences of their actions/beliefs when faced with such consequences.

Regardless of the content of the letter (on which there is of course a lot to say), the two above character traits should be sufficient not to have them hired by any firm.

I'd have withdrawn the offer solely on the basis she started a letter with "Hi y'all"

How these students can't see that it is possible to a) want the Israeli government to allow more freedom for the Palestinians, better infrastructure to be built in Gaza etc etc while *also* thinking b) killing babies is bad, is beyond me. Either way, if you can't handle that level of nuance, a job at a top law firm might not be for you.

Yes - disgusting and abhorrent and deserving of utter condemnation.  On a par with dropping phosphorus bombs on a playground, bombing a hospital or giving your soldiers standing orders to shoot at children playing near a security fence. But not as bad as cutting off water and electricity to 2.2m people locked in an open prison.

Starting a message with Hi Y'all is sufficient to drop them. 

Regardless of the right's or wrong's of the student's message (and its so obviously wrong), it shows incredibly poor judgement. 

There is no way you would want someone capable of saying something as crass and awful as that working for you.

Similarly, you probably don't want someone who takes a binary position in a complex situtation, but that is a different point.

Generally I am in favour of freedom of speech on all sides so eg do not support the muslim women in London yesterday tearing down posters put up my Jews about missing Jewish children. However employers are free to choose whom they hire so everyone expressing views, including my pro Israeli views I have held for over 40 years,  runs the risks that go with the expression of the views.

We have chosen in the UK to allow into the UK a vast number of people into the country who may not be too keen on jews. It was probably a mistake but we are where we are. In the UK Hamas is a terrorist organisation so there are laws relating to that which must be followed.

Ryna thinks murdering Jewish children is fine but you’d better not disrespect her pronouns as that would make her unsafe 

The IDF is just engaged on a policy of mass ethnic cleansing, and has ordered over 1 million Gazans to flee.  That is, punishing hundreds of thousands of civilians for the antics of a terrorist group.  Pretty much all of the West approves of this policy, and you can bet that nobody will be fired for expressing support for it lol.  

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/gaza-israel-west-hypocrisy-jailbreak-stomach-turning

Utterly tone deaf story to publish given the genocide Israel is currently committing in Gaza. The Palestinian people have a legitimate right of self defence against the occupying forces illegally occupying them (as enshrined in international law).

Israel is a neo-facist nuclear armed apartheid state illegally occupying a civilian population against international law - Palestinians are a civilian population who don’t even have an army to defend themselves against the occupation forces. The support for Israel’s violent settlor colonialism and apartheid is some parts of the Western media is absolutely abhorrent and is akin to supporting slave owners or the apartheid regime in South Africa.

There is never a legitimate reason to support terror groups or harm to anyone but to be clear Israel is choosing to occupy a civilian population and choosing to ethnically cleanse and terrorise that civilian population. Any resistance Palestinians put up to their extermination (whether non-violent or armed by resistance fighters) is met with extreme violence by Israel.

Israel’s 75 year illegal occupation and racist apartheid regime are extremely violent - Israel’s entire state exists on the constant and systematic perpetual violence against the indigenous Palestinian people. Israel’s neo-fascist government has publicly said it intends to exterminate the indigenous Palestinian “human animals” from their own land. Absolutely abhorrent. 

Not as bad as supporting a neo-fascist violent apartheid ethno-theocratic state that is openly calling for the extermination of the indigenous civilian people of that land for simply being non-Jews. 

Israel is an illegal occupier. 

"Workman, who identifies as non-binary"

What a remarkable and unexpected confluence of fashionably progressive stances.

Why are companies not firing people who publicly express any support for Israeli apartheid and its genocide of Palestinian children? Is it because the perpetrators are white Jews while the victims are brown…? 

"openly calling for the extermination of the indigenous civilian people of that land for simply being non-Jews"

What does that word 'indigenous' mean in this context, exactly?

Are you saying that Jewish people aren't indigenous to their homeland? Or that Palestinians have some kind of greater 'indigenosity' that trumps the Jewish version?

Help us to understand you, please.

(and then we'll go look at the Hamas manifesto, i.e. the government of Gaza's stated aims, together and see if we can't find some actual open calls for the extermination of a people simply for being Jewish) 

I struggle to make an opinion on public political statements, both personally and professionally. We should have the right to freedom of speech, but ah, if it goes against the general consensus or what's politically correct then its a taboo. I will not pretend I am the most informed or knowledgeable of this conflict which has existed for generations, but what I do know is that Israeli police, military and the Israeli people have oppressed Palestinians for years (you know where I stand on this). The surprise attack and response by Hamas is not unprovoked (however, I do not condone the suffering of civilians, destruction of religious sites, or war crimes committed no matter who the actor is). It seems that the 'right' thing to do in the West is to support Israel, and this is professionally accepted. But to support Palestine (I distinguish Hamas from Palestine) is frowned upon, which can also lead to situations like this arising. The point I make, is that you cannot go against what is politically correct or you risk your reputation and your career. I could go on about the mass manipulation by the media which fuels this, but keeping this relevant to where we as professionals stand, we find ourselves torn between erring on the side of caution and not saying anything, or standing up for what you believe in, even if it costs you dearly.

I would genuinely love to know if people feel the same way about this, because when these conversations arise at work you find yourself between a rock and a hard place, sometimes damned if you voice your opinion and damned if you don't. 

"The Palestinian people have a legitimate right of self defence against the occupying forces illegally occupying them"

Which bit of that involves executing children in cold-blood, abducting pensioners, spitting on the bodies of dead women that you parade down the street, and openly calling for the genocide of all Jews and the elimination of Israel as a state?

Because that's what Israel is responding to here.

You can't just wish the weekend away and try to pretend that Israel is bombing Hamas for a lark. What we saw at the weekend was actual ethnic cleansing. That's what attempted genocide looks like, so stop pretending that you didn't see it or it doesn't matter.

You want less civilian casualties, start calling for Hamas to surrender. Stop telling Israel that it just has to do ineffective stuff for a week before giving Hamas (yet another) opportunity to re-arm and go again.

This is the result of woke initiatives and diversity hiring. Little Iqbal and Tariq are taken on at elite US shops, whereas in reality their skills probably wouldn't get them into a high street conveyancer. 

Surely law firms should be apolitical? 

@ Trainee 13 October 23 09:51

Well said: "We should have the right to freedom of speech, but ah, if it goes against the general consensus or what's politically correct then its a taboo"

I used to be opinionated and hold trenchant views on politics.

Then I grew up and became busy with less time on my hands. 

@ Mr Five Per Cent 13 October 23 10:04

Your reasoning is fundamentally flawed. Effectively, you are saying that the increase of ethnic people in the profession is damaging the reputation and quality of the legal industry. It's very sad to hear something like this, and I would actually enjoy an open discussion with you on this. But, I don't think you can be saved. 

Just keep all opinions to yourself, on all subjects. It's the safest way.

People are so stupid - anyone with a brain cell must see this attack in the context of 75 years of Israeli illegal occupation, murder, genocide, total blockade of the Palestinian people. Hamas (rightly or wrongly) were elected by the people of Gaza out of sheer desperation.

Let's not forget that the UK and the U.S. went to war in Iraq killing millions, setting fire to the Middle East over a lie - we then talk about Hamas as terrorists! 

If it were the other way around and this was carried out by the Ukrainians against Russia the world would be celebrating. 

Our double standards, hypocrisy and blind support for the terrorist, murderous, apartheid state of Israel whose foundation and very core is built on stealing land from the Palestinians is truly shocking. I am ashamed to be British. 

The support for Israel’s war crimes among right wing idiots is scary and has no place in a profession like law.

ROF is full of right wing bigots supporting Israel. Same people who would have defended the KKK and colonialism. Madness. 

Waiting for all those right wing white extremists who are posting support for Israel on LinkedIn to be fired. Supporting a racist apartheid state in committing ethnic cleansing justified by religious fanaticism and racism. Insane. 

Putting aside who is in the right here I find it amazing how often lawyers (and prospective lawyers) trumpet their opinions on contentious issues. Law firms are businesses with a wide range of clients with divergent views/political leanings and no firm is going to hire/retain someone who could potentially bring down a boycott on their heads (or at least generate bad press). Just keep your views to yourself and restrict your activism to charitable donations etc.   

"Workman, who identifies as non-binary, emailed a newsletter to NYU law students on Tuesday which began, “Hi y'all”."

Ok, Daily Mail...

@trainee - there is no consensus on Israel - there are just right wing voices who bully and try and silence any legitimate criticism of Israel’s crimes by calling critics of Israel terrorists or terrorist supporters. Nelson Mandela was labelled a terrorist until 2008 for fighting against South African apartheid - Israel was apartheid South Africa’s biggest supporter. The settlor colonial playbook. 

Imagine being a Palestinian student at NYU Law School who doesn't know if their kidnapped grandmother is alive…or if their two year old niece has been blown to smithereens. 

Mr Five Per Cent showing once again the racism within the legal community. 

Standards have fallen so far at both law schools and law firms in America, that it's hardly surprising that people like this manage to get into NYU and get offered jobs at good law firms despite being wildly unsuited to any serious career, purely for ticking the right diversity boxes. Let's hope that Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard stops the rot.

Can anyone tell me what is different with the sentiments expressed in that letter to the widely accepted (in white, western countries) that Palestinians are squarely to blame for their own murder? 
 

a reminder - Israel isn’t just killing Palestinians in Gaza. They are doing it in the West Bank too. Run by an entirely different entity to the bogeyman Hamas, which entity has accepted Israel’s existence. 

Palestinians are murdered when engaging in peaceful resistance too (literally shot dead whilst protesting) 

Utterly dreadful situation. 

It clearly goes too far. However, supporting Palestine should not be a firable offence nor having a view that Israel is hardly whiter than white. I feel a sense in the media that any criticism of Israel these days makes you an anti-semite. That is not really fair in my view.

"I want to express, first and foremost, my unwavering and absolute solidarity with Palestinians in their resistance against oppression toward liberation and self-determination"

Christ alive what a horribly mangled sentence. Before you even get to her terrorist sympathies, someone who writes this badly has no business being in a profession where a strong grasp of language is required. 

I wonder what Hamas’ policy is on people who identify as non binary.  
 

At the very least, publicly celebrating the war crimes of Hamas demonstrates an incredible lack of judgement.

People have been pushed out of their jobs for statements which may have been controversial and perhaps unwise but far less inflammatory. However, the cardinal sin of Kathleen Stock and others was going against today's pseudo-progressive orthodoxy that divides the world between classes of victims and oppressors.

Arguably it is the corporate pseudo-Left that has made its bed and now has to lie in it, for better or worse...

@Anon2023 13 October 23 10:43

black and brown students you mean? Just say it you racist. 

Another example of the legal profession being out of touch of reality. This person has lost his career in the legal profession.

Anon 10:55 probably quite similar to position of the neo fascist religious extremists nut jobs currently governing Israel.

Nice to see all the anti semitic cu next tuesdays out in force, again. 

"On a par with dropping phosphorus bombs on a playground"

Friendly reminder that Israel discontinued the use of white phosphorous munitions in 2013.

So this talking point is now a decade out of date and is a reliable indicator that anyone banging on about it is either (a) tragically underinformed, or (b) just trying to find some flimsy moral equivalence between Hamas and the IDF. 

@ Trainee Trainee 13 October 23 10:20

Saved from your anti-white, cultural Marxist dogma?

It is interesting that when Israel attacks civilians this is described as proportionate self-defence, though when Hamas attacks civilians this is described as terrorism. 

While I see no issue with the latter point, the consensus position in the West seems a little inconsistent to me… 

"It is interesting that when Israel attacks civilians this is described as proportionate self-defence, though when Hamas attacks civilians this is described as terrorism."

This is such a facile attempt at equivalence.

There is a difference between shooting civilians (including infants and pensioners) in cold-blood in their homes without any pretence of hitting a military target (and then parading their naked bodies in the street to celebrate), and of accidentally killing civilians as part of a bombing campaign on an ammunition depot knowingly stored under civilian infrastructure after first sending a 'knock' to warn civilians to evacuate.

Trying to pretend that the two are somehow equivalent is just absurd.

One is ethnic cleansing, the other is the sad reality of fighting terrorists who knowingly operate out of a densely populated urban area.

"People are so stupid - anyone with a brain cell must see this attack in the context of 75 years of Israeli illegal occupation, murder, genocide, total blockade of the Palestinian people." 

Oh yes, a 'genocide' so real and not made up that it has succeeded in reducing the population of the Gaza Strip from circa 500,000 on its creation to mere 2,500,000 today! A fivefold increase! How could the Israelis be so wicked?

People who talk about Israel's 'genocide' in Gaza are definitely to be taken very seriously.

They are absolutely not just flinging the word genocide around in a pathetic attempt to draw some facile moral equivalence between a terrorist organisation which states genocide as its primary aim, and the attempts to defend against it which do the best they realistically can in tragic circumstances.

"Let's not forget that the UK and the U.S. went to war in Iraq killing millions, setting fire to the Middle East over a lie - we then talk about Hamas as terrorists!"

Yes, I think we all famously remember the sight of American troops wilfully shooting infants in their homes, massacring civilians at a music festival, then dancing in the streets around their naked corpses while calling for the extermination of the countrymen of the deceased. 

Definitely something we can draw a strong moral equivalence with, and not a desperate attempt to wave away Hamas' ethnic cleansing campaign as a run-of-the-mill occurrence; as if we're all just as bad on our off days.

"If it were the other way around and this was carried out by the Ukrainians against Russia the world would be celebrating."

Be serious.

The idea that any Western leader would be ok with the naked corpses of Russian civilians being paraded in the streets of Kiev for people to spit on, while footage of nurseries in Donetsk being torched over the heads of dead infants circulated around the world, is just ridiculous.

Like, how much do you have to hate Jews to make yourself believe such a thing? 

@ Mr Five Per Cent 13 October 23 11:29

Firstly, I am a stereotypical white middle class heterosexual male in legal profession. Now, I will say that the trend and fixation on D&I hiring has gone too far, so much so in that candidate hiring can be seen more of a tick box exercise rather than recruiting the best talent. Believe me, I was pleased SCOTUS ruled that affirmative action and positive discrimination in college admissions is unconstitutional, because it is another form of discrimination labelled as "levelling the playing field". But, a blanket statement saying that Iqbal and Tariq (undoubtedly ethnic names) wouldn't make it as a high street conveyancer is blatantly racist. 

Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard, 600 U.S. 181 (2023)

"Arguably it is the corporate pseudo-Left that has made its bed and now has to lie in it, for better or worse..."

Yes, suspect that Work'person' is probably a bit surprised to see the shoe on the other foot.

I think a strong likelihood that they had imagined that they would invariably be the one doing the cancelling.

This has to be said:

Support for Palestine does not amount to anti-Semitism. 

Support for Israel does not amount to Islamaphobia. 

This conflict is far more complex than brandishing it as one religion against another.

We should have the right to freedom of speech, but ah, if it goes against the general consensus or what's politically correct then its a taboo.

In America freedom of speech is pretty clearly defined.  it's the right to say something without being arrested or persecuted by the state.

That does not mean that others are compelled to listen to you, agree with you, support you, defend you.  Nor are others forced by law to provide you with a platform, physical or digital.  

And if they don't to be associated with the opinions you espouse they are entitled to do something about that.  That's not curtailing your freedom of speech.  It's expressing their own.

@ Trainee 13 October 23 12:15

I never said you weren't white, middle class or heterosexual. I was calling out your leftist verbiage. Golly gosh, we mustn't be "raciiiiist"! 

This is bad for freedom of speech. The message is, if you express an opinion, err on the side of western supported. 

Anyone can be a lawyer. An education from these top universities is too theoretical and sometimes a handicap. 

Lots of mention here of "freedom of speech".

Thing is, you can say what you want.  Doesn't mean I have to listen.

Freedom of speech is the right to speak, write, and share ideas and opinions without facing punishment from the government. 

Last time I looked Winston & Strawn are not the government.  Whether or not they have breached employment law is another matter but I'd be willing to bet they have not.

The problems of Gaza are not the making of our generation, or indeed exclusively of Israel. Egypt, too, pushed its radical undesirables into the strip, but that it forgotten about.

The essentials are that Gazans elected Hamas and are democratically responsible for what they do. Hamas’ mandate is to destroy Israel.

On Saturday, Hamas crossed the border with the objective of killing and kidnapping civilians. The act of the armed wing of an elected government.
 

Israel will, in targeting Hamas, kill a lot of people who have nothing to do with the raid. But that is a consequence of war. It is their duty to keep civilian casualties to a minimum, and the forced evacuation of northern Gaza must be seen in this light.

Nobody wins in war, but Hamas is a cancer.

Concept point:

It's not anti-semitism, when you mean anti- Zionism.

Check out the BBC article regarding the difference. 

@ Anonymous 13 October 23 12:27

Good point. But, I have heard cases of people waving a Palestine flag and being threatened by Police with being arrested for "breaching the peace" or "inciting a riot"...

Interesting podcast from Nick Cohen (ex Guardian) who cannot seriously be seen as on the right, whatever you may think of him.

The Ascent of Woke with Yascha Mounk

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/ep-14-the-ascent-of-woke-with-yascha-mounk/id1688778084?i=1000630587215

Good point. But, I have heard cases of people waving a Palestine flag and being threatened by Police with being arrested for "breaching the peace" or "inciting a riot"...

in the UK or the US?  And in what area or what other circumstances?

A link to a report is vital when you make these posts else it is just hearsay.  For all we know you could have made it up.  It's funny but people do make stuff up on the internet.

Re. Anonymous 13 October 23 11:21

Translation: "Israel has used banned chemical weapons indiscriminately in heavily populated areas including schools, but not recently".

Silly me. That's all OK then.

This thread is pretty depressing.

Its clear that Hamas' attack was unforgivable. You can't come back from killing and beheading babies. Its really hard to think of a worse atrocity.

The collective punishment and killing of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip is wrong and a mistake. This will just lead to decades more of hatred and revenge.

If you think one side is completely right and other completely wrong, you are a simpleton or a fanatic.

Israel has just been criticised by human rights organisations yet again for using banned white phosphorus chemical weapons on civilians it is occupying and indiscriminately attacking. Absolutely abhorrent. 

There is an historical and political context to what is going on. Using it as a reason to apportion blame "100%" to either side is intellectually inept. It is entirely possible to condemn the historic and present behaviour of Israeli governments and illegal settlors without falling in behind Hamas, explicitly or implicitly. It is also possible to feel for the suffering of ordinary Palestinians, Muslims, Israelis and Jews, many of whom are suffering in ways I cannot begin to imagine. These should not be mutually exclusive. The newsletter and open letter in the article are tremendously tactless and show a complete lack of nuanced thought, and those behind them have nobody but themselves to blame for any career impact (I certainly wouldn't want to hire or work with any of them).

I'm against depraved burning of babies, rape, kidnap, murder, and torture.*

It's really not hard.

*I'm also opposed to the Israeli apartheid occupation of the West Bank but that's got NOTHING to do with this vile pogrom.

“We have chosen in the UK to allow into the UK a vast number of people into the country who may not be too keen on jews. It was probably a mistake but we are where we are.”

@Lydia - your comment is odd in that it’s one sided in relation to a situation where both Israelis and Palestinians are suffering hate. Ideally we would live in a country where no person hates a particular race of people or religion. 

I truly feel for the innocent people (both Israelis and Palestinians) suffering in all of this. Hamas is a terrorist organisation and its actions were inexcusable (and atrocious). The government of Israel is not a terrorist organisation and it should act accordingly in its defence of its people. Bombing and destroying Gaza without restraint may hurt Hamas, but will and is destroying the lives of innocent Palestinians. Israel’s actions are just as bad. 

"Israel has just been criticised by human rights organisations yet again for using banned white phosphorus chemical weapons on civilians it is occupying and indiscriminately attacking."

No it hasn't.

A single 'NGO' has declared, without any apparent evidence, that it is sure that Israel has used such things in Gaza this week. The IDF has denied it.

But of course, Hamas apologists really need it to be true because that will let them pretend that somehow the IDF is equivalent to Hamas death-squads who spent their weekend purposefully executing civilians.

So here we are again, 2010's talking point is back from the dead, the phosphorous bogey-man walks among us, and we're all trying to pretend that a particular type of smoke-bomb is an atrocity equivalent to shooting infants.

Again, how much do you have to hate Jews to feel a need to buy into this stuff?

Supporting the decapitation of babies, raping women over their families' dead bodies, raping and beheading the elderly. Etc. Not great. I don't care about excuses or explanations, that's what it is. There's no debate here.

Wibbling about Israel's response is an irrelevant strawman and shifting the focus. Then the idiocy of the devil's advocates sitting high and dry in their armchairs from the United Kingdom who have likely never even visited Israel. Israel has tried a lot of things. These guys are barbarians and don't think like us. They use civilians as human shields. Hamas HQ was under a hospital. There's no easy way to deal with it, but there has to be a very deadly response. Sorry if you want to give the trainee that sh1ts in your drawer and exposes himself to that seccies some harsh words, but if he's going to do that, he'll do anything. Anyway, it's not the debate here and people shifting the focus should be ashamed of themselves. They won't because they're anti-semetic gits hiding behind impartiality and trying to see all sides and generally incapable of taking responsibility for anything.

Anon 13:56, source? 

Fairly strong undercurrent of racism from all of y'all stating that Hi Y'all is sufficient reason to rescind an employment offer. 

Ryna could perhaps have done some basic research and noted that the co-chair of her future employer is a prominent Jewish person. Hamas thinks he doesn't have the right to live.

How did they expect the firm to react to them publishing such a letter, after the shooting at point-blank range of Jewish babies in their beds? How is that "resistance towards oppression"? Or the murder of young people at a music festival, or the murder of old people in their own homes? 

Not self-defence, not 'resistance', not combat...

Gratuitous, abhorrent, murder.

Ex IDF. There seems to be a massive expert opinion expressed. All those who really wish to see what happened on the 7th, go to the Hamas & Eye on Palestine Telegram page. All the atrocities they committed are there to see. Then come back here and comment. I was in Lebanon during the Civil War and bad things happened there between the Arabs, Christians, Druse and Palestinians. But nothing prepared me to what I have seen on Telegram. Nothing justifies the desecration, mutilation, burning of dead bodies.
The deliberate targeting and sole purpose of slaughtering civilians, rape, the wanton destruction and looting how is that helping the cause of the Arabs?

To conflate this massacre with the Arab/Israeli conflict is idiotic and proves how uneducated some lawyers are.
 

If anyone has found a genius way to secure the lives of Israelis from repeat atrocities and rocket fire in the future which involves no suffering for Palestinian civilians please urgently let the Israeli embassy know: you may have won the Nobel peace prize.

Asking the Islamic State of Hamas to kindly stop playing so roughly doesn't count.

It is the raison d'etre of the Israeli Defence Forces to use force to defend civilian lives: specifically the lives of Israeli civilians, and of course subject to the law of proportionality. 

It seems to fall to the civilians of Gaza to safeguard the lives of Hamas terrorists.

The notion of 'racist' is a construct designed to overthrow and subdue the Anglo-Saxon races. You're not fooling anybody by trying to brand people with that term.

This is not about free speech.

If you are supportive of Hamas, their goals and their actions and you feel that's the correct stance from a moral perspective - go for it. But be aware that this goes along with fundamentally opposing western values and the values of potential employers and clients. You may still pursue a career in law, but you may need to choose your employers in different jurisdictions / cultures.  

Hats off to the law firms for reacting so quickly and showing that all the talk about diversity, inclusion etc. does not mean that fundamental values had no longer any meaning or that this translated into endorsing everything regardless of what it is.

Also a valuable lesson that you should not jump on every initiative that claims to support an allegedly oppressed "victim group" without carefully reading for what you actually sign up. (Elite law students should have known about the concept of reading and understanding before signing, but whatever...)

If a white future associate had publicly supported a regime which believes black people shouldn't exist, they would have lost their job too

"You either stand with Israel or you're a supporter of Hamas!"

Sorry, but that's a false dichotomy. 

Almost everyone would really rather you chaps found a compromise to this 3,000 year old feud which doesn't involve beheading, hatred, apartheid, land theft, breaches of international law, war crimes, discrimination, refugee camps, missiles, rockets and actually involved looking at the future rather than harking back at past sleights over the past centuries.

Only one of those factions has a functioning state, armed forces and security apparatus so it probably ought to start there.

Amnesty International posted on their Instagram today criticising Israel’s use of illegal white phosphorus, again. Just fyi to the anon poster above who keeps denying what Israel is doing. 

Butchering pregnant women and infants, and murdering unarmed civilians before dragging their naked corpses through the streets and celebrating their deaths, is wrong. 

If you cannot accept the above sentence without adding "but" onto the end of it, then you have lost touch with (or never had) a key part of what makes one a decent human being. 

It's the Religion Of Peace, you bigots! 

Why it IS about freedom of speech:

When a company decides to hire and fire people for their political opinions which the company disproves of because it is deemed unpopular within the political regime, the company assumes the moral role of the the government's agent.

Same applies to missionaries, weapons dealers etc, which are all private individuals but acting on the government's will. 

This definition at least applies in America since it made a case against Huawei. 

IF ONLY GARY LINEKER WOULD TWEET ABOUT THIS WE COULD GET IT STOPPED.

DAMN YOU GARY LINEKER.

DAMN YOU TO HELL.

political opinions which the company disproves of because it is deemed unpopular within the political regime

That's a big old leap you sneaked in there.

Did you think no-one would notice?

Can  you link to evidence that the company disapproves of opinions because...."  (I can't type the clumsy witless nonsense - sorry)?

Or have you been reading David Icke again (mind  you the Royal Family are definitely all lizards)?

When a company decides to hire and fire people for their political opinions which the company disproves of because it is deemed unpopular within the political regime, the company assumes the moral role of the the government's agent.

Same applies to missionaries, weapons dealers etc, which are all private individuals but acting on the government's will.

WAKE UP SHEEPLE.  IT'S THE GUVINGMINT.

I am of Jewish heritage. During my time at university, I chose to alter my surname to shield myself from discrimination, particularly within the legal field. I encountered some disapproving attitudes during a vocational work placement and have grown up in an environment marred by anti-Semitism. I've taken great care to keep my Jewish identity hidden, both within and outside the workplace.

The reason behind my discretion is directly linked to the sentiments expressed in this comment section. It reflects how certain individuals treat Jews in real life—with disdain and contempt.

In a situation as horrifying as the one described—unspeakable acts of violence such as babies being decapitated, women subjected to unimaginable atrocities over their families' lifeless bodies, and the brutal treatment of elderly individuals—it's deeply disconcerting to witness individuals suggesting that these acts were somehow justified, especially when this justification occurs in the same week as the atrocities. There is no sense of care or concern, and the disassociation from the traumatic nature of these events is striking. Attempting to talk about such horrors with such dispassion further compounds the severity of the situation. These discussions often invoke 'freedom of speech' and attempts to distinguish between criticism of Israel and hatred toward Jews.

The 'yeah, that's not very nice, BUT...' approach is concerning. The attempts to pivot the conversation towards Israel, Jews, or Palestine, and the efforts to legitimise Hamas as a democratically elected entity, are not justifiable. There should be no room for 'buts' in discussions about such tragic events, and the disconnect from the reality of the situation is disheartening. It is particularly troubling to observe individuals downplaying the severity of recent events by suggesting that they were somehow provoked.

many posters here talk about Israel occupying Gaza. It does not. It left Gaza in 2005. Don't let facts get in the way of hatred. Many useful idiots in the West support or making excuses for Hamas not even understanding who they are and their goals. Their goal is not territory or a two state solution or even justice and development for Palestine. It is destruction of Israel and the total genocide of all Jews. It is driven by an ancient hate and where they believe their mission is god given. These are not my words. There are Hamas' own words. If you don't believe it, go to their charter and read what they say.

The irony is that as a binary she could risk being tortured and killed if she lived in Gaza, as opposed to Israel...

@ Anonymous 13 October 23 21:37

This definition at least applies in America since it made a case against Huawei. 

Which part of your word salad is a definition?  What are you defining?

Aside from stating the obvious (which is that what is happening now is abhorrent on both sides of the spectrum), what's more concerning, is that there is now a third player in this conflict - public opinion. I've lived in a few countries over the years. In countries with excessively high populations and tough poverty lines, the value of a human life is noticeably less compared to other cities and countries that tend to be more developed. 

Right now, that effect, is being felt in the west, which is seriously worrying. I noticed this when that submersible collapsed a few months ago. The lack of sympathy for those grieving at the time (on the basis of the departed's wealth) found in social media was something strange. I hadn't noticed it before to that level and at the time, it worried me that if something as non-polarising as a tour gone wrong could elicit such a desensitized set of reactions, then what would happen when something significant takes place. 

A few months later, and we're faced with what happened last weekend. The bloodlust and disregard for calamity among rational people on both sides of the dispute (followed by the classic whataboutisms) is shocking. I'm seeing some of it in this thread, as I'm sure all of your are seeing it on X (especially X) and other social media. That's what makes this catastrophic event even more dangerous because of the conditioning and spillover effect it has created. 

For an issue as incredibly complex as the one we're currently facing, firms and organizations should take an extremely measured approach. 

Rather than forming an opinion on either side (which has been labored to (quite literally) death over the last century) perhaps its time we (who may not be directly in that world) approach things differently. Firstly, by understanding that this immediate access to violence on social media should be a reminder and a reset - where children and bystanders are involved, regardless of side, universal condemnation and a f****ing time-out on violence of this type be pushed as hard as possible. That's what leadership at law firms and other organizations should be yelling from the roof-tops rather than adding to the inflamed cycle.

What's happened is beyond tragic where the crisis has gone so far, the flagrant disregard for life on either side has led to this blind bloodlust where their children, women and elderly (and their families) pay the ultimate price. 

No one f****ing wins and no one ever will with this approach. 

Dude, you wouldn’t marry a Sonnenrad tattoo’d NSDAP card carrying Herrenvolk Fuehrer’s Frau Competition winner, now, would you, on the basis that she is entitled to her political views. Are you then acting as a government agent? 
 

So why employ one? 
 

Choose life!

Looking from distant Europe, it seems that Harvard has degenerated into such a pool of idiocy that no one who has been socialized there recently should be hired.

Harvey Specter (2023): We never hire Harvard.

anon 14 October 23 04:05

Gaza is occupied - Israel controls all entry and exit points and has has erected concentration camp style machine gun nests all the way round it with exclusion zones inside the fence and even in the sea, as well as controlling all utilities, imports and exports. Israel regularly "mows the grass" (i.e. murders Gazans using airstrikes and cluster munitions) to keep them in check. What part of that is "not occupation"? They are still referred to in the UN as the "Occupied Territories".

Interesting from the NYT on this.

https://web.archive.org/web/20231014095607/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/11/us/nyu-law-harvard-hamas-israel.html

They say some chief execs have been asking for a list of Harvard people who signed such public statements and letters so that they do not accidentally offer any of them employment.

Wherever you politically stand on this issue, you must be a fool making anti-Jewish or anti-Israel comments if you are hoping to work for a reputable US law firm. These firms (and many of their staff) are Jewish, often with serious ties to Israel.

If you are so strongly against Israel, why would you even want to work for such firms? If you're ok with making money for these firms, maybe you should not voice such divisive opinions...

Israel has not left Gaza. It is still the occupying power under international law and controls its airspace, ports, entry/exit, communications. Israel continues to steal Palestinian land. For the first time in its history in November 2022 Israel's government included far-right convicted racists Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich, who called for Palestinian towns in the West Bank to be wiped out. They openly call for the eviction of Palestinians from West Bank and for Israel to annex the West Bank. 

A note to the West: if we lose Palestine, we will need to be compensated with London etc. 

"Israel regularly "mows the grass" (i.e. murders Gazans using airstrikes and cluster munitions) to keep them in check."

Paranoid conspiracy gibberish of the highest order.

If you genuinely think that Israel regularly bombs Gaza with 'cluster-bombs' as part of some kind of calculated population culling exercise, then you need your head seeing to.

It's so absurd as to be up there with lizard people faking the moon landings.

There's conflict in Gaza, and it's a tragedy, nobody denies that. But spouting loopy nonsense about it all being part of some kind of population management scheme is just laughably silly.

https://twitter.com/morphiaz/status/171385555185821708 shows a group of Gazan civilians turning up as news spreads of a good pogrom at Kibbutz Be'eri. Not Hamas fighters - just middle aged men.

But Anon 14/10/23 21:10 is right: what really is needed is more freedom of movement. If only Israel got rid of its concentration camp walls and allowed free movement from Gaza onto its sovereign territory, peace would flourish thanks to these kind and gentle souls.

I take great pleasure in offending these kind and gentle souls, these people like Anon 14/10/23 21:10 with the mere fact of my Jewish existence. It offends all the right people.

I blame God. Without that twat, there would be no brotherhood, no haram, no holy jihad, no chosen people and no promised land.

Without him, no-one would listen to bearded, glassy-eyed idiots brandishing the scarcely readable works of illiterate goat herders from a time long ago who thought the sky was a disc and that you could fly right through it.

He needs to be thrown into an oubliette.

That's some Grade A back pedaling. 

Street wisdom prevails the workplace politics — Be on the side of the winner, not what you think is right.